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The Leon Show

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March 3, 2016
28:31

The Leon Show, Guest Dr. Chris Thurman "Building a Great Marriage"

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The Leon Show

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  • -LEON FONTAINE: Today, the ten most common lies couples believe
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  • about their marriage.
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  • - Dr. Chris Thurman knew he wanted to be a psychologist from
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  • an early age. With a superior knowledge of human emotions and
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  • mental health, Thurman credits his Christian faith as the lens
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  • through which he treats all patients and strives to see
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  • healing, wholeness and freedom. On top of consulting with
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  • churches and running a very successful private practice, Dr.
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  • Thurman finds time to write best-selling books exploring
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  • common emotional, relational and spiritual struggles. Dr. Thurman
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  • and his wonderful wife Hope have been married for over 30 years
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  • and call Austin, Texas home. Here to offer wisdom and
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  • insight, please welcome Dr. Chris Thurman. [Applause] Dr.
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  • Thurman, welcome! It's good to have you here!
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  • -DR. CHRIS THURMAN: Thank you, Leon. Great to be here!
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  • -LEON: That's quite the title for a book, 'Lies. 'The Lies
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  • Couples Believe.' But if they did believe a lie, that's
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  • completely destructive.
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  • -DR. THURMAN: Very destructive and it's not an easy title to
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  • sell, because who wants to admit to believing a lie, right?
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  • -LEON: That's very true. Now, you work in Austin, Texas. Tell
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  • me a little bit about what you do there.
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  • -DR. THURMAN: Well, I'm a psychologist in private
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  • practice. I went to the University of Texas, which is in
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  • Austin, as an undergraduate and that's where I got my doctorate
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  • from as well. And I got my wife and kids back to Austin as soon
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  • as I could after spending about ten years up in Dallas.
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  • -LEON: Okay. So now, how many years have you been working with
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  • marriages?
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  • -DR. THURMAN: I have been in the field of counseling for 40
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  • years, so I would say 35 of those I've worked with couples.
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  • -LEON: Couples, so this book is coming from a whole lot of
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  • trials.
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  • -DR. THURMAN: It is. It is, yes.
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  • -LEON: Well, I thought one of the fun things, like people? We
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  • cannot get through the whole book in the shows that we're
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  • going to do, but I think that if we can touch on some of the
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  • things that you have noticed about couples that I think it
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  • would help people immensely, because there's a lot of married
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  • people out there and the truth is, all of us want to work and
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  • have better marriages. If someone doesn't, then there's a
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  • lie there somewhere already. Where would you start with the
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  • lies couples believe?
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  • -DR. THURMAN: Well, let me start with the one that's pretty
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  • common and incredibly destructive, which is that the
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  • purpose of marriage is to be happy, and that is a tough sell
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  • in this day and age to say that it's not the purpose of
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  • marriage. So that one is, what I'm trying to go after there is
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  • the idea that the main focus in your marriage needs to be your
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  • happiness, and I think that gets a lot of couples in trouble
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  • because inevitably in marriage you're going to wound each
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  • other, you're going to be selfish at times, you're going
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  • to be irresponsible. And therefore, if your happiness is
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  • dependent on how you're being treated, then you're going to be
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  • unhappy and then you start to think about the grass has got to
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  • be greener somewhere else. I'll go find somebody that I'll be
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  • happier with. So what I try to drive home in that chapter is,
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  • the real focus in marriage is on healthy, intimate companionship
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  • and growth. If you can make it about growth, then you've got
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  • the right mindset because God is using that relationship to help
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  • you mature into more loving, healthy Christ-like people.
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  • -LEON: So if I'm hearing you right, then if you focus on your
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  • happiness you're pretty self-centered, then?
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  • -DR. THURMAN: You are very self-centered, you are being
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  • what we would call narcissistic because you're making it all
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  • about you, and you're going to end up unhappy which is the
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  • paradox of it. The more you seek your happiness directly, the
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  • more unhappy you get over time. -LEON: You know, it's
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  • interesting. We use the word 'happy' now a lot. Like years
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  • and years ago, even parents, if you'd ask them, "What do you
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  • want for your kids?" They would say something like, "Great
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  • purpose, living meaningful lives." Today, I hear this all
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  • the time as a Pastor, "I just want them to be happy." And now
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  • you're saying, "If you pursue happiness, you're guaranteed
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  • unhappiness."
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  • -DR. THURMAN: It is the way the god of darkness and the father
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  • of lies has set it up. If you can get to believing what he
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  • wants you to believe, which is your whole issue needs to be:
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  • are you happy? You're done! You are going to get creamed.
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  • -LEON: So when it comes to looking at our marriages, we
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  • pursue happiness; we're going to find unhappiness. But when it
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  • comes to growth, I heard someone say somewhere that the thing
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  • that makes depression work the most in our lives is when we
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  • stop growing. Is that true?
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  • -DR. THURMAN: I think depression is a symptom of: we
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  • have quit growing, that we've metaphorically curled up in a
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  • fetal position you know, and we've just kind of tossed in the
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  • towel, and we have gotten hopeless about life ever being
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  • enjoyable or meaningful or happy. But I think again, the
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  • depression can be a symptom that somebody wasn't focused on
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  • growth, and therefore they just kept pursuing happiness. And
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  • when a couple does that, I think they have a relatively depressed
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  • marriage. It's real down, it's in the ditch, it's dark. There's
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  • not much joy or happiness in the marriage again, when that's
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  • their number one reason for being together.
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  • -LEON: When you go out for lunch, and you notice young
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  • couples that are newly in their relationship, it's animated
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  • talking. Then when you notice like, a lot, not all but a lot
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  • of older couples, it's like not a word the entire meal. It just
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  • stands out to me sometimes. And so, it doesn't matter how old
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  • you are though, you're saying there's lots to grow in. You
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  • don't stop!
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  • -DR. THURMAN: You never stop if you're thinking about the right
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  • focus. Young couples? I'm trying not to sound like I'm down on
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  • people being happy because I'm sure not.
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  • -LEON: But still, it's a lie you're saying that is hurting
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  • people. Let's fix it!
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  • -DR. THURMAN: It's a lie and they key with young couples is,
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  • they fall in love and there's nothing that'll make you happier
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  • than being in love but 'in love' is not love, okay? In love is
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  • more of a psychosis, you know? You're walking around, you're
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  • nine feet off the ground. You don't know what in the world
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  • you're even thinking or feeling half the time. You sure don't
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  • know the person yet, because you're in love with the fantasy
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  • of who you think they are.
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  • -LEON: That's true. You're in love with the dream you have of
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  • it.
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  • -DR. THURMAN: That's right, and you walk down the aisle and it
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  • doesn't take too long before the reality that you've married a
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  • fallen human being who can be what I call the unholy trinity;
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  • selfish, lazy and immature, and you're on the way to some
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  • wounds. And can you weather those and can you come together
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  • as a couple, because of your vow and because of your commitment
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  • and really roll up your sleeves about: we need to grow, we need
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  • to come from being children who thought and reasoned like
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  • children, to full-fledged adults who no longer think childish
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  • things.
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  • -LEON: Now, most couples are pretty aware of where their
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  • spouse needs to grow. So, what? You're going to cause a big
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  • fight here if we all go home and go, "Okay, I just heard a thing
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  • on growth and you need to grow." So how do you resolve that?
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  • -DR. THURMAN: Well, when I'm working with couples, I really
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  • get on them if they're in the other person's backyard, so I do
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  • not allow that in my office. It's like, "You are not going to
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  • work on them. You are not going to play Holy Spirit. You are not
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  • going to look down your nose like they're the one that needs
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  • to grow and you don't need to have anything worked on in you."
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  • So I lovingly get on them pretty good if that's the name of the
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  • game in a session that we're doing.
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  • -LEON: All right, so I think there's a couple things you
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  • said. So the first? The things to focus on weren't: am I happy?
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  • It was growth. What was the other one you mentioned?
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  • -DR. THURMAN: Well, companionship obviously. It's
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  • not good for man to be alone, so when God created marriage He was
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  • looking at Adam's situation. And even though Adam had a perfectly
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  • intimate relationship with God, he didn't have another human
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  • being to be with. So I think we have to keep our eye on the
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  • purpose of a marriage is healthy, intimate bonding,
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  • healthy attachment. But it's also about children as well, we
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  • are to fill the earth and we are to also I think, change is the
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  • final issue. It's a marriage is not going to do anything but die
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  • if it's not growing. Marriages do not stay in neutral. They're
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  • either getting better or they're getting worse.
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  • -LEON: What are some of the signs of a growing marriage, or
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  • of a changing marriage? Is there anything that you've kind of
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  • zoned in one?
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  • -DR. THURMAN: I think a growing marriage is marked by a couple
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  • of things, for sure. Service is one. A couple that you can see
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  • is really interested in serving each other, that's a marriage
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  • that's going to grow because that's what Christ came to do.
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  • He came to serve, not to be served. So if you see two people
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  • who are looking out for the other, who are looking for that
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  • other person's needs to matter as much as their own do, that's
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  • a marriage that's going to grow. It can't not grow. I think a
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  • humble marriage is a marriage that's going to grow. When you
  • 00:08:53.080 --> 00:08:55.230
  • have two people who are not full of themselves and who are
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  • willing to say, "I am a human being. I'm fallen, I have my
  • 00:08:58.280 --> 00:09:02.140
  • flaws." That's a marriage that's going to really take flight and
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  • be, stand out like a sore thumb to the rest of the world.
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  • -LEON: So would you say then, as we come to the close of this
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  • first lie, that if you will focus on change, if you'll focus
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  • on growth that happiness seems to follow that?
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  • -DR. THURMAN: I believe it does. I think that's how God has
  • 00:09:20.110 --> 00:09:22.150
  • wired it. I think He's saying, "If you will put your eye on the
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  • right thing, you get this additional wonderful thing added
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  • to it, but don't go after that directly. Go after the real
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  • deal, and happiness comes and it lands on your shoulder."
  • 00:09:32.060 --> 00:09:35.020
  • -LEON: Let's take a break right here and then when we come back,
  • 00:09:35.030 --> 00:09:37.120
  • let's unpack some more lies. My guest today is Dr. Chris Thurman
  • 00:09:37.130 --> 00:09:41.030
  • with this book, 'The Lies that Couples Believe.' You need to
  • 00:09:41.040 --> 00:09:45.130
  • get a copy! We'll be right back.
  • 00:09:45.140 --> 00:09:48.040
  • -DR. THURMAN: Yeah, the bar is just set way too high. Again,
  • 00:09:48.050 --> 00:09:51.190
  • nobody can meet all of your needs, and if you think that
  • 00:09:51.200 --> 00:09:55.250
  • they can and should then you end up resentful, you end up bitter.
  • 00:09:55.260 --> 00:10:00.000
  • You can't help but feel that.
  • 00:10:00.010 --> 00:10:01.190
  • -ANNOUNCER: We believe Jesus Christ came to give every person
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  • on this planet a chance to live with power, passion and purpose.
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  • -ANNOUNCER: Church. God created a church for you to have a home,
  • 00:11:20.260 --> 00:11:24.290
  • a family and a purpose. It's a place where we can connect with
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  • each other, where everyone should find love, acceptance and
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  • forgiveness. But the church is not a building. It isn't the
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  • brick, the doors, stained glass or the steeples. It's the
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  • people! We fill it with life and laughter.
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  • - We are the church and we can be online from anywhere in the
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  • world. Let's connect at SPRINGS Online today.
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  • -LEON: Welcome back. My guest today is
  • 00:12:25.130 --> 00:12:29.080
  • Dr. Christ Thurman and he's written this book, 'The
  • 00:12:29.090 --> 00:12:32.050
  • Lies Couples Believe.' And we're just kind of unpacking some of
  • 00:12:32.060 --> 00:12:34.090
  • these lies. So, the first one is: don't pursue your own
  • 00:12:34.100 --> 00:12:38.000
  • happiness. You're going to end up in the ditch.
  • 00:12:38.010 --> 00:12:41.020
  • -DR. THURMAN: Don't make it the focus of the marriage as far as
  • 00:12:41.030 --> 00:12:42.240
  • the main purpose.
  • 00:12:42.250 --> 00:12:44.210
  • -LEON: All right, what's another one we can cover?
  • 00:12:44.220 --> 00:12:46.130
  • -DR. THURMAN: Well, another one that's very common in marriage
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  • is that my spouse can completely meet all of my needs, and I see
  • 00:12:49.020 --> 00:12:54.020
  • that one really being destructive in a marriage,
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  • because the simple truth is, nobody can completely meet all
  • 00:12:57.090 --> 00:13:01.020
  • your needs. So if you go up to a spouse and you drop that on
  • 00:13:01.030 --> 00:13:04.210
  • their doorstep and you say, "That's your job, and if you
  • 00:13:04.220 --> 00:13:08.140
  • don't meet every need I have in total, then you're not doing
  • 00:13:08.150 --> 00:13:12.200
  • your job." It leads to a lot of resentment, a lot of bitterness,
  • 00:13:12.210 --> 00:13:16.040
  • a lot of anger. So what I try to teach my couples is: there is
  • 00:13:16.050 --> 00:13:20.240
  • not one single person on the planet who can completely meet
  • 00:13:20.250 --> 00:13:24.010
  • your needs. That's God's job and He works through a variety of
  • 00:13:24.020 --> 00:13:28.100
  • people and activities and hobbies and passions, and His
  • 00:13:28.110 --> 00:13:31.270
  • Word and the Holy Spirit to meet your needs. Don't do that to a
  • 00:13:31.280 --> 00:13:35.200
  • person. Don't do that to them. That's just too much to ask of
  • 00:13:35.210 --> 00:13:39.150
  • any person, and they'll never feel like they are enough.
  • 00:13:39.160 --> 00:13:43.180
  • Nobody wants to walk around feeling like, I just can never
  • 00:13:43.190 --> 00:13:46.010
  • be enough for you.
  • 00:13:46.020 --> 00:13:47.090
  • -LEON: Yeah, that would. You know, I've met people just in
  • 00:13:47.100 --> 00:13:49.200
  • pastoral counseling. We don't do a lot of marriage counseling but
  • 00:13:49.210 --> 00:13:52.110
  • you know, just getting together a couple times with couples and
  • 00:13:52.120 --> 00:13:54.210
  • then moving them somewhere, that some people are so bitter and so
  • 00:13:54.220 --> 00:13:58.050
  • angry when you first talk to them, and then you meet their
  • 00:13:58.060 --> 00:14:01.000
  • spouse and you kind of go, "There's no real problem here."
  • 00:14:01.010 --> 00:14:04.080
  • But that, you said it, that bitterness comes from their
  • 00:14:04.090 --> 00:14:07.010
  • expectations and their wrong expectations.
  • 00:14:07.020 --> 00:14:09.280
  • -DR. THURMAN: Yeah, the bar is just set way too high. Again,
  • 00:14:09.290 --> 00:14:12.260
  • nobody can meet all of your needs, and if you think that
  • 00:14:12.270 --> 00:14:16.200
  • they can and should then you end up resentful, you end up bitter.
  • 00:14:16.210 --> 00:14:20.140
  • You can't help but feel that. So the expectation that they will
  • 00:14:20.150 --> 00:14:24.200
  • meet all of my needs, otherwise why did we marry? That's kind of
  • 00:14:24.210 --> 00:14:27.290
  • an attitude that a lot of people have about marriage is, you
  • 00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:30.290
  • marry the person who's going to meet your complete package of
  • 00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:34.030
  • needs, completely. And again, it's just not realistic. Nobody
  • 00:14:34.040 --> 00:14:39.080
  • can do that. On our best day, we can probably meet a part of your
  • 00:14:39.090 --> 00:14:43.160
  • needs to some degree if we're trying to die to self enough.
  • 00:14:43.170 --> 00:14:48.030
  • But this whole thing about the movie with Tom Cruise and you
  • 00:14:48.040 --> 00:14:52.200
  • know, you complete? It's like, no! Nobody completes you, okay?
  • 00:14:52.210 --> 00:14:56.230
  • That's just worldly thinking, it's Hollywood and that's not
  • 00:14:56.240 --> 00:15:01.040
  • the way to look for a spouse. You don't go out there looking
  • 00:15:01.050 --> 00:15:08.050
  • for somebody that just completely fulfills everything
  • 00:15:08.060 --> 00:15:12.100
  • you are. It's just a delusion to think that way.
  • 00:15:12.110 --> 00:15:15.100
  • -LEON: Even, I think even when people are dating. I love your
  • 00:15:15.110 --> 00:15:18.060
  • thought on that. They find someone that they think is going
  • 00:15:18.070 --> 00:15:21.060
  • to do that and people seem to like that, "I complete you! Oh,
  • 00:15:21.070 --> 00:15:25.040
  • I can really help you. I'm the answer." But then, once you get
  • 00:15:25.050 --> 00:15:28.140
  • married for a couple of years, I think you really resent. Is that
  • 00:15:28.150 --> 00:15:32.110
  • true? Like having to meet that person's needs all the time and
  • 00:15:32.120 --> 00:15:36.250
  • be the reason they're not? Like, any time you're the reason
  • 00:15:36.260 --> 00:15:39.010
  • they're not happy, that's got to be one of the most destructive
  • 00:15:39.020 --> 00:15:41.210
  • things.
  • 00:15:41.220 --> 00:15:42.290
  • -DR. THURMAN: Right, right. I think the resentment builds up
  • 00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:44.210
  • in the other person too, because they feel like, "Well, I'm just
  • 00:15:44.220 --> 00:15:47.100
  • basically here for your use. I'm just here for your disposal."
  • 00:15:47.110 --> 00:15:51.190
  • And I think unconsciously if not consciously, we start to be
  • 00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:55.100
  • bitter about, "Is that all I am to you? I'm just here for your
  • 00:15:55.110 --> 00:15:59.240
  • needs and you're going to get on me if I don't meet them
  • 00:15:59.250 --> 00:16:03.120
  • completely, which I can't do?" It's just a real sick, unhealthy
  • 00:16:03.130 --> 00:16:07.130
  • pattern for a couple to get into.
  • 00:16:07.140 --> 00:16:09.150
  • -LEON: I was talking earlier about being in a restaurant and
  • 00:16:09.160 --> 00:16:12.050
  • watching these young couples animatedly talking, and then an
  • 00:16:12.060 --> 00:16:15.010
  • older couple hardly talking at all. But then, on the other
  • 00:16:15.020 --> 00:16:17.210
  • hand, there's something pretty cool about being so at home in
  • 00:16:17.220 --> 00:16:21.170
  • each other's presence. You could read a book. You don't have to
  • 00:16:21.180 --> 00:16:25.060
  • impress them. You're just so comfortable being together as
  • 00:16:25.070 --> 00:16:28.250
  • friends, I think is probably a pretty cool side as well.
  • 00:16:28.260 --> 00:16:31.120
  • -DR. THURMAN: That's a very cool side, but I will say this
  • 00:16:31.130 --> 00:16:34.020
  • about the older couple that's sitting there in silence. When
  • 00:16:34.030 --> 00:16:37.050
  • they're in my office, I get on them pretty good too because
  • 00:16:37.060 --> 00:16:40.080
  • it's like, "Well, let me tell you. You've gone the other
  • 00:16:40.090 --> 00:16:42.080
  • extreme, okay? You have quit meeting each other's needs and
  • 00:16:42.090 --> 00:16:46.070
  • you guys do not need to be sitting there in silence at a
  • 00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:49.020
  • restaurant, okay?" So Satan to me is always into extremes. He
  • 00:16:49.030 --> 00:16:53.100
  • either wants you to think you should meet all of them, or I
  • 00:16:53.110 --> 00:16:57.240
  • don't have to meet any of them. He's the god of extremes, if you
  • 00:16:57.250 --> 00:17:01.070
  • will. So I lovingly push my older couples. You were meant to
  • 00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:03.240
  • be happy in each other's arms, you were meant to be lively, you
  • 00:17:03.250 --> 00:17:07.260
  • were meant to be passionate, you were meant to be visceral around
  • 00:17:07.270 --> 00:17:11.260
  • each other. So if you're sitting there in dead silence for an
  • 00:17:11.270 --> 00:17:13.280
  • hour meal at a restaurant, something has gone south on you
  • 00:17:13.290 --> 00:17:18.100
  • and maybe it's you're not meeting each other's needs much
  • 00:17:18.110 --> 00:17:23.110
  • at all. So I push them pretty hard on that.
  • 00:17:23.120 --> 00:17:25.280
  • -LEON: That's very cool. So all right, so lies, and if couples
  • 00:17:25.290 --> 00:17:30.270
  • have, like you're going through ten of them. You've probably
  • 00:17:30.280 --> 00:17:33.060
  • found more than ten, but any one of these could probably destroy
  • 00:17:33.070 --> 00:17:37.260
  • a marriage.
  • 00:17:37.270 --> 00:17:39.040
  • -DR. THURMAN: Any one of them by themselves could destroy and
  • 00:17:39.050 --> 00:17:41.200
  • does destroy marriage. I think we have to really be mindful of
  • 00:17:41.210 --> 00:17:45.120
  • the enemy's schemes and that, "We war not against flesh and
  • 00:17:45.130 --> 00:17:49.050
  • blood, but against spiritual forces of darkness." So as the
  • 00:17:49.060 --> 00:17:52.030
  • father of lies, what other way to torpedo a marriage than to
  • 00:17:52.040 --> 00:17:55.150
  • get people thinking things that are unbiblical and carry that
  • 00:17:55.160 --> 00:17:59.060
  • into the marriage every day, and thus the anger ratchets up, the
  • 00:17:59.070 --> 00:18:03.050
  • resentment and bitterness grows stronger. People start
  • 00:18:03.060 --> 00:18:05.290
  • withdrawing from each other or attacking each other, and the
  • 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:09.080
  • marriage is really under a great deal of duress and it's going to
  • 00:18:09.090 --> 00:18:12.040
  • take a lot of work to get it out of that.
  • 00:18:12.050 --> 00:18:14.040
  • -LEON: It's so true. I think that people need to recognize
  • 00:18:14.050 --> 00:18:16.110
  • the enemy, he really shoots darts which are lies. Every
  • 00:18:16.120 --> 00:18:21.040
  • thought that seems to come into your head isn't true, and he
  • 00:18:21.050 --> 00:18:25.270
  • just seems to make us ask the wrong questions. It seems like
  • 00:18:25.280 --> 00:18:29.040
  • wisdom is in the questions, and we start asking questions that
  • 00:18:29.050 --> 00:18:32.020
  • are so self-centered and so negative about our partner, and
  • 00:18:32.030 --> 00:18:35.110
  • then that lie just takes us down. And the Bible say, "The
  • 00:18:35.120 --> 00:18:39.000
  • truth sets us free." So almost all truth is confrontational.
  • 00:18:39.010 --> 00:18:44.200
  • -DR. THURMAN: I think it is, and I think that's another
  • 00:18:44.210 --> 00:18:46.270
  • reason why we are not all that open to it being pointed out
  • 00:18:46.280 --> 00:18:48.270
  • that we're not thinking right. I think the truth has a way of
  • 00:18:48.280 --> 00:18:55.050
  • being pretty confrontational, pretty in your face, so I know
  • 00:18:55.060 --> 00:19:01.010
  • when I'm working with my couples, it's I'll challenge
  • 00:19:01.020 --> 00:19:03.290
  • them on some of their thinking, but you can see the resistance.
  • 00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:07.080
  • It's like, "I may not make an appointment with you for next
  • 00:19:07.090 --> 00:19:11.130
  • week, Dr. Thurman, and that's what you get for telling me the
  • 00:19:11.140 --> 00:19:14.150
  • truth today because I'm not really super open to it." But
  • 00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:17.140
  • whether you like it or not, you're to speak the truth in
  • 00:19:17.150 --> 00:19:20.090
  • love and we are all to try to let God have His way with us
  • 00:19:20.100 --> 00:19:23.160
  • about when He wants to hold up a mirror and tell us that we're
  • 00:19:23.170 --> 00:19:26.120
  • not thinking correctly.
  • 00:19:26.130 --> 00:19:29.000
  • -LEON: Well, I think some people, once you even believe
  • 00:19:29.010 --> 00:19:32.190
  • one lie. Like, let's pick on the first one, that you're to make
  • 00:19:32.200 --> 00:19:34.190
  • me happy. So you begin to develop an entire system of
  • 00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:36.250
  • thinking. Every flaw, every failure, everything you have or
  • 00:19:36.260 --> 00:19:40.040
  • haven't done, you begin to build this line upon line. But your
  • 00:19:40.050 --> 00:19:43.020
  • entire thoughts of your marriage, your past, your future
  • 00:19:43.030 --> 00:19:47.000
  • are all around this one lie. So if you can really bring that up
  • 00:19:47.010 --> 00:19:50.140
  • and show them, you can save a marriage. If not, they'll
  • 00:19:50.150 --> 00:19:53.160
  • continue to build layer after layer. Is that true?
  • 00:19:53.170 --> 00:19:56.150
  • -DR. THURMAN: Yes, and that's where you run into whether or
  • 00:19:57.100 --> 00:19:59.000
  • not the client is truly open to saving their marriage. If I can
  • 00:19:59.010 --> 00:20:03.020
  • hold that truth up for them and if they are willing to humble
  • 00:20:03.030 --> 00:20:06.280
  • themselves and say, "You know what? I think I need to admit
  • 00:20:06.290 --> 00:20:10.050
  • that I've been thinking a wrong way for decades."
  • 00:20:10.060 --> 00:20:13.040
  • -LEON: That's hard to do!
  • 00:20:13.050 --> 00:20:14.120
  • -DR. THURMAN: It's hard to do; I mean, any of us don't want to.
  • 00:20:14.130 --> 00:20:16.030
  • -LEON: Like, talk to me about humility because you said this
  • 00:20:16.040 --> 00:20:17.200
  • two or three times now that people who are proud, you almost
  • 00:20:17.210 --> 00:20:20.030
  • can't help. But Proverbs says that, "Pride goeth before
  • 00:20:20.040 --> 00:20:24.060
  • destruction," is it? "And a haughty spirit before a fall."
  • 00:20:24.070 --> 00:20:27.030
  • So once a person is locked into their belief, some don't want a
  • 00:20:27.040 --> 00:20:29.120
  • change in there.
  • 00:20:29.130 --> 00:20:31.010
  • -DR. THURMAN: And that's why as a Christian, it's especially
  • 00:20:31.020 --> 00:20:34.000
  • powerful to be able to say, "Let me, not in a Bible-thumping way,
  • 00:20:34.010 --> 00:20:39.170
  • but let me show you where this is in the Word of God, because
  • 00:20:39.180 --> 00:20:41.040
  • you're not arguing with me, okay? You're arguing with God,
  • 00:20:41.050 --> 00:20:44.170
  • and if you want to take Him on you can, but you're going to
  • 00:20:44.180 --> 00:20:46.290
  • lose. So it's not just me telling you that the purpose of
  • 00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:49.230
  • marriage is to grow. Let me show you in scripture where it says
  • 00:20:49.240 --> 00:20:52.220
  • that, and if you want to take Him on and argue with Him? Okay,
  • 00:20:52.230 --> 00:20:55.290
  • but you're going to lose, because He is truth and He
  • 00:20:56.000 --> 00:20:59.110
  • doesn't mess around and He's not going to negotiate with you
  • 00:20:59.120 --> 00:21:02.110
  • about how to think in a marriage in order for it to be a loving
  • 00:21:02.120 --> 00:21:05.110
  • one."
  • 00:21:05.120 --> 00:21:07.000
  • -LEON: I think one of the best things that married couples can
  • 00:21:07.010 --> 00:21:09.280
  • do, you know pastoring over the years, is continually together
  • 00:21:09.290 --> 00:21:13.290
  • read a marriage book every month or two and it gives you stuff to
  • 00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:18.240
  • talk about. And then just rehearse it, just go through the
  • 00:21:18.250 --> 00:21:21.240
  • same one together and talk about what you agree with, what you
  • 00:21:21.250 --> 00:21:24.260
  • don't agree with. But it just plants seeds of truth and even
  • 00:21:24.270 --> 00:21:28.140
  • if you don't want to go there today, it just seems to begin to
  • 00:21:28.150 --> 00:21:32.030
  • grow. Holy Spirit has this amazing ability to take that
  • 00:21:32.040 --> 00:21:35.030
  • truth and it begins to grow in you, and then you start dealing
  • 00:21:35.040 --> 00:21:38.290
  • with yourself because it's like-- it's not like a
  • 00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:40.290
  • mechanical paradigm where, "Find broken person. Fix broken
  • 00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:43.250
  • person, you know? Find the part." It's like an agricultural
  • 00:21:43.260 --> 00:21:46.220
  • where it just grows, and so do you find that frustrating
  • 00:21:46.230 --> 00:21:49.240
  • sometimes that you just, you can't fix things right away but
  • 00:21:49.250 --> 00:21:53.110
  • you just teach them truth and they go back home?
  • 00:21:53.120 --> 00:21:55.210
  • -DR. THURMAN: I do, because I am more of a fixer by nature. I
  • 00:21:55.220 --> 00:21:58.220
  • like to really get into something and fix it, so it is
  • 00:21:58.230 --> 00:22:02.140
  • frustrating for me just because I'm not all that patient. So
  • 00:22:02.150 --> 00:22:05.120
  • with my clients, we have to all learn how to be patient and let
  • 00:22:05.130 --> 00:22:08.230
  • it be a process, and let it be a lengthy one because it is, it is
  • 00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:11.250
  • a long time of hard work.
  • 00:22:11.260 --> 00:22:13.240
  • -LEON: It's worth it.
  • 00:22:13.250 --> 00:22:14.240
  • -DR. THURMAN: But it is worth it.
  • 00:22:14.250 --> 00:22:16.010
  • -LEON: Man, our time is up! Thank you so much for being with
  • 00:22:16.020 --> 00:22:17.140
  • us.
  • 00:22:17.150 --> 00:22:18.140
  • -DR. THURMAN: My pleasure. Thank you!
  • 00:22:18.150 --> 00:22:19.210
  • -LEON: We've been talking today with Dr. Chris Thurman about
  • 00:22:19.220 --> 00:22:21.190
  • this book, 'The Lies Couples Believe.' We got through two,
  • 00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:24.100
  • barely! And only scratched the surface. You need to get a hold
  • 00:22:24.110 --> 00:22:28.050
  • of this book. Go to work on your marriage. We'll be right back.
  • 00:22:28.060 --> 00:22:30.230
  • -ANNOUNCER: DEVOTED. A daily devotional created with you in
  • 00:23:22.040 --> 00:23:23.240
  • mind. Easy to read and simple to understand. These two-minute
  • 00:23:23.250 --> 00:23:27.000
  • faith boosters are available in eight different languages. Watch
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  • it on YouTube or have the booklet sent directly to your
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  • home. You can also receive DEVOTED to your email inbox
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  • daily. Become inspired as Leon Fontaine shares practical
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  • Biblical teaching. DEVOTED is literally at your fingertips!
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  • Transform your life with this Spirit Contemporary devotional.
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  • Sign up to receive DEVOTED today.
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  • -LEON: One of the things I'm so excited about is the Spirit
  • 00:23:54.060 --> 00:23:58.210
  • Contemporary message that you hear us talking about once in a
  • 00:23:58.220 --> 00:24:01.190
  • while, that in order for our churches to be alive and for
  • 00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:05.020
  • Christians to really influence the marketplace, the business
  • 00:24:05.030 --> 00:24:08.190
  • world, the political world, the educational world, etcetera, we
  • 00:24:08.200 --> 00:24:12.210
  • need to represent Christ in the way He represented Himself.
  • 00:24:12.220 --> 00:24:17.270
  • Jesus was the most Spirit Contemporary person that ever
  • 00:24:17.280 --> 00:24:21.120
  • walked the planet. He grew in favor with God and He grew in
  • 00:24:21.130 --> 00:24:25.010
  • favor with man. That's spiritually with God and in
  • 00:24:25.020 --> 00:24:28.280
  • favor with man is, He was a contemporary person. From I
  • 00:24:28.290 --> 00:24:32.220
  • mean, the clothes He used to the manners that He used to how He
  • 00:24:32.230 --> 00:24:35.190
  • reached out to people, Jesus was a phenomenal human being even
  • 00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:41.220
  • though He was the Son of God. What's lacking in so many
  • 00:24:41.230 --> 00:24:45.040
  • Christians' lives today is we've become religious, we've become
  • 00:24:45.050 --> 00:24:48.290
  • judgmental, we've become a subculture speaking our own
  • 00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:53.030
  • language instead of being able to represent Christ in that
  • 00:24:53.040 --> 00:24:56.190
  • spiritually alive yet cool, contemporary, relevant with no
  • 00:24:56.200 --> 00:25:01.290
  • compromise Spirit Contemporary person. It's so crucial that
  • 00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:08.050
  • this message gets out there. One of my passions as I travel
  • 00:25:08.060 --> 00:25:13.230
  • around the world, training and equipping Pastors and Leaders is
  • 00:25:13.240 --> 00:25:18.040
  • that to become Spirit Contemporary in every culture is
  • 00:25:18.050 --> 00:25:21.060
  • the way for this beautiful Gospel to go to a whole 'nother
  • 00:25:21.070 --> 00:25:27.090
  • level. We even literally need to redeem the churches that are out
  • 00:25:27.100 --> 00:25:31.200
  • there that have slipped into religion. There are churches and
  • 00:25:31.210 --> 00:25:34.180
  • whole denominations that have just slipped into religion and a
  • 00:25:34.190 --> 00:25:38.000
  • way of doing things that no one cares about anymore, and so many
  • 00:25:38.010 --> 00:25:41.220
  • people are sharing a Jesus in a way that no one is listening to.
  • 00:25:41.230 --> 00:25:45.280
  • But Jesus is always relevant and I really want to encourage you
  • 00:25:45.290 --> 00:25:50.180
  • to get on board and become Spirit Contemporary. And then,
  • 00:25:50.190 --> 00:25:54.060
  • as this message gets out, how would you like to become a
  • 00:25:54.070 --> 00:25:58.150
  • partner here with us, and let's take this message of the Gospel,
  • 00:25:58.160 --> 00:26:03.140
  • the wonderful Gospel of Jesus but in a Spirit Contemporary
  • 00:26:03.150 --> 00:26:08.210
  • way. It'll radically change churches, it'll change cities,
  • 00:26:08.220 --> 00:26:12.170
  • it'll change nations. It will cause a move of God to take
  • 00:26:12.180 --> 00:26:17.260
  • place that will make you stand in awe! Today, I want to ask you
  • 00:26:17.270 --> 00:26:23.110
  • to make a generous donation of $30 or more, to put action to
  • 00:26:23.120 --> 00:26:26.130
  • your faith. You're not buying anything; you're sowing into
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  • your own future. You're making it possible for others to hear
  • 00:26:30.250 --> 00:26:34.060
  • about Jesus, and with my heart-felt thank you I'd like to
  • 00:26:34.070 --> 00:26:37.220
  • send you a very special resource offer, as well as my daily
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  • devotional. Call right now. You'll be changing someone's
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  • eternity.
  • 00:26:45.060 --> 00:26:46.110
  • -ANNOUNCER: We trust that you are being blessed, uplifted and
  • 00:26:48.180 --> 00:26:51.000
  • encouraged in your Christian walk through today's program. As
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  • a viewer, you should know that we care about you. We value you
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  • greatly and appreciate your prayers.
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  • - Did you know that MIRACLE CHANNEL is taking the good news
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  • of Jesus Christ around the world, through award-winning
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  • programs like this? We are actively translating ministry
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  • programs into languages like Spanish, French, Italian and
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  • even Russian. We even air on television stations in the
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  • Middle East. This means that millions upon millions of people
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  • are hearing about Jesus Christ in their language, and it's all
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  • thanks to people like you. Considerable expenses are
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  • involved so we need your support, because each person who
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  • gives their life to Jesus is absolutely worth the cost. Each
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  • is of infinite value to God. You are very important to us. We
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  • care greatly about your spiritual growth, which is why
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  • we would like to get today's resources into your hands. When
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  • you support this program by making a donation, you are not
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  • only enriching your walk with the Lord; you are sharing Jesus
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  • with someone on the other side of the globe. Your donation
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  • transforms lives by reaching literally millions of people
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  • with the Gospel. Call now and change someone's life today.
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  • - Join us again on Monday for THE LEON SHOW.
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  • - I think one of the practical ways that we have to do that is
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  • invite people in, invite people to speak into that blind spot in
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  • your life, people you trust. Maybe it's a spouse, maybe it's
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  • a roomate, maybe it's a good friend or colleague
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  • you really trust. Because pride is one of the most
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  • difficult things to see in the mirror.
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  • Closed Captioned By CS: The Miracle Channel Association
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