Jesus the Game Changer | Episode 2 | TBN

Jesus the Game Changer | Episode 2

Watch Jesus the Game Changer | Episode 2
September 11, 2018
26:35

Jesus the Game Changer

Closed captions

Jesus the Game Changer | Episode 2

Show timecode
Hide timecode
  • (instrumental music)
  • 00:00:00.170 --> 00:00:03.180
  • - I would say the world is completely different
  • 00:00:05.080 --> 00:00:07.060
  • because of Jesus, his death and his resurrection.
  • 00:00:07.060 --> 00:00:09.190
  • The first thing is that he came to Earth as God
  • 00:00:13.020 --> 00:00:16.170
  • so he reminded us that Earth is good, our bodies are good.
  • 00:00:16.170 --> 00:00:20.180
  • Being a human being is an ultimate God desired,
  • 00:00:20.180 --> 00:00:24.020
  • an ultimate good desired by God.
  • 00:00:24.020 --> 00:00:26.100
  • He then transforms the whole of the world
  • 00:00:26.100 --> 00:00:28.210
  • in which he lived, he forgave sins,
  • 00:00:28.210 --> 00:00:31.020
  • he brought us hope and joy
  • 00:00:31.020 --> 00:00:32.200
  • and the resurrection vision of how we can be in the future.
  • 00:00:32.200 --> 00:00:35.230
  • (upbeat music)
  • 00:00:40.120 --> 00:00:43.000
  • - The influence of that Jesus has had across the centuries,
  • 00:01:05.030 --> 00:01:08.050
  • what did Jesus leave when he left this world?
  • 00:01:09.100 --> 00:01:12.050
  • 'Cause he didn't leave a great deal, did he?
  • 00:01:12.050 --> 00:01:13.280
  • - Well, you know, one of the ways that I'll think about that
  • 00:01:13.280 --> 00:01:16.070
  • sometimes is in the US in school,
  • 00:01:16.070 --> 00:01:19.050
  • sometimes there'll be votes in classes
  • 00:01:19.050 --> 00:01:21.230
  • on most likely to succeed.
  • 00:01:21.230 --> 00:01:24.010
  • If you were to think about the famous figures
  • 00:01:24.010 --> 00:01:27.030
  • in world history and ask at the moment that they died,
  • 00:01:27.030 --> 00:01:30.190
  • who was least likely to succeed posthumously,
  • 00:01:30.190 --> 00:01:34.190
  • Jesus would win in a landslide.
  • 00:01:34.190 --> 00:01:36.210
  • Like at the moment of his death,
  • 00:01:36.210 --> 00:01:38.170
  • he's obscure, nobody outside of this one tiny little country
  • 00:01:38.170 --> 00:01:42.070
  • has ever heard of him.
  • 00:01:42.070 --> 00:01:43.090
  • He hasn't written anything
  • 00:01:43.090 --> 00:01:45.030
  • and he's been utterly discredited.
  • 00:01:45.030 --> 00:01:46.240
  • I mean Israel had a lot of people
  • 00:01:46.240 --> 00:01:48.270
  • who were thought to be the Messiah.
  • 00:01:48.270 --> 00:01:50.110
  • If they got crucified, that was Rome's way of saying
  • 00:01:50.110 --> 00:01:52.270
  • you were not the Messiah and he got crucified.
  • 00:01:52.270 --> 00:01:56.130
  • Nobody of that little handful of people
  • 00:01:56.130 --> 00:01:59.040
  • who were following him would have said,
  • 00:01:59.040 --> 00:02:01.290
  • this movement's gonna go on another day.
  • 00:02:01.290 --> 00:02:04.150
  • So on the day after he died,
  • 00:02:04.150 --> 00:02:07.270
  • I think it would be safe to say there's nobody
  • 00:02:07.270 --> 00:02:11.070
  • who is of any repute in world history
  • 00:02:11.070 --> 00:02:14.110
  • who would have been less likely to make their mark
  • 00:02:14.110 --> 00:02:17.240
  • historically, the day after they died
  • 00:02:17.240 --> 00:02:20.070
  • than Jesus of Nazareth.
  • 00:02:20.070 --> 00:02:21.160
  • So something amazing happened.
  • 00:02:21.160 --> 00:02:23.070
  • - You know, today, the joke is, you know,
  • 00:02:23.070 --> 00:02:26.130
  • Jesus was little thing in his time
  • 00:02:26.130 --> 00:02:28.060
  • and Nero was a big deal.
  • 00:02:28.060 --> 00:02:29.130
  • Today, Jesus is a big deal and Nero's
  • 00:02:29.130 --> 00:02:31.100
  • what you call your dog, you know (laughing),
  • 00:02:31.100 --> 00:02:34.050
  • tells you how things have reversed.
  • 00:02:34.050 --> 00:02:36.050
  • - So Jonathan, there are those who
  • 00:02:38.290 --> 00:02:40.060
  • actually question Jesus' existence.
  • 00:02:40.060 --> 00:02:42.120
  • From your position, you would see that
  • 00:02:42.120 --> 00:02:44.210
  • that Jesus' existence is unquestionable?
  • 00:02:44.210 --> 00:02:47.140
  • - Well nothing's unquestionable in history.
  • 00:02:47.140 --> 00:02:49.200
  • You know, you can't be certain about anything
  • 00:02:49.200 --> 00:02:52.070
  • but there are degrees of certainty.
  • 00:02:52.070 --> 00:02:54.200
  • And I think it's, in the case of Jesus,
  • 00:02:54.200 --> 00:02:57.210
  • I think it's very likely that he existed.
  • 00:02:57.210 --> 00:02:59.190
  • I think that in history, basically, you look at the evidence
  • 00:02:59.190 --> 00:03:03.110
  • and you decide what best explains that evidence.
  • 00:03:03.110 --> 00:03:07.020
  • So in the case of Jesus,
  • 00:03:07.020 --> 00:03:08.160
  • we have some evidence for his existence
  • 00:03:08.160 --> 00:03:11.050
  • and I would say that his existence
  • 00:03:11.050 --> 00:03:13.190
  • would explain that evidence better
  • 00:03:13.190 --> 00:03:15.180
  • than his nonexistence would.
  • 00:03:15.180 --> 00:03:17.240
  • (upbeat instrumental music)
  • 00:03:17.240 --> 00:03:21.110
  • - How do we hold to Jesus being a historical figure?
  • 00:03:24.220 --> 00:03:27.100
  • - Well I did history and ancient history
  • 00:03:28.160 --> 00:03:30.200
  • at university and simply, some of the text
  • 00:03:30.200 --> 00:03:33.250
  • that are hostile, talk about Jesus.
  • 00:03:33.250 --> 00:03:36.090
  • So Pliny and Tacitus, they speak of Jesus,
  • 00:03:36.090 --> 00:03:38.170
  • they don't like him, but they talk about him,
  • 00:03:38.170 --> 00:03:41.030
  • and in fact later we get monks who redact that because
  • 00:03:41.030 --> 00:03:43.250
  • they don't like what's been said about Jesus,
  • 00:03:43.250 --> 00:03:45.280
  • but they're redacting something that has been said.
  • 00:03:45.280 --> 00:03:49.060
  • - How do we have confidence in the stories about Jesus?
  • 00:03:49.060 --> 00:03:52.190
  • - You have outside sources.
  • 00:03:52.190 --> 00:03:54.290
  • In fact you have Tacitus, you have a bunch of people
  • 00:03:54.290 --> 00:03:58.060
  • from this era, Lucian of Samosata, Mara bar Sarapion,
  • 00:03:58.060 --> 00:04:03.010
  • these are people who are writing within that time frame
  • 00:04:03.010 --> 00:04:06.220
  • about Jesus as a person, and some of them mention his death
  • 00:04:06.220 --> 00:04:11.090
  • as well, some of them mention that his disciples
  • 00:04:11.090 --> 00:04:13.230
  • were teaching he was the messiah.
  • 00:04:13.230 --> 00:04:16.010
  • And they mention it as, and that was erroneous,
  • 00:04:16.010 --> 00:04:18.210
  • right, that's what they're saying, this is wrong.
  • 00:04:18.210 --> 00:04:21.020
  • - So these people aren't agreeing with what they're writing,
  • 00:04:21.020 --> 00:04:22.220
  • they're just pointing to this person in history.
  • 00:04:22.220 --> 00:04:24.070
  • - Right, like Josephus, the Jewish scholar,
  • 00:04:24.070 --> 00:04:27.000
  • and he's pointing towards, you know Tacitus I mentioned,
  • 00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:29.280
  • he's one of the, if not the greatest Roman historian.
  • 00:04:29.280 --> 00:04:33.040
  • And he mentions Jesus.
  • 00:04:33.040 --> 00:04:35.110
  • (inspirational piano music)
  • 00:04:35.110 --> 00:04:39.010
  • - [Karl] One of the questions is,
  • 00:04:40.100 --> 00:04:41.180
  • so how do you know we can trust them?
  • 00:04:41.180 --> 00:04:43.060
  • And we know that's a huge area, but in what sort of ways
  • 00:04:43.060 --> 00:04:45.230
  • do you have confidence in those writings?
  • 00:04:45.230 --> 00:04:47.210
  • - Well, all sorts of ways, really.
  • 00:04:47.210 --> 00:04:49.140
  • One of them is that there is of course external evidence
  • 00:04:49.140 --> 00:04:52.270
  • to tell us that Jesus existed.
  • 00:04:52.270 --> 00:04:55.000
  • So you've got tests like things written by Tacitus,
  • 00:04:55.000 --> 00:04:58.170
  • a famous Roman historian, and Pliny,
  • 00:04:58.170 --> 00:05:00.230
  • also a famous Roman historian,
  • 00:05:00.230 --> 00:05:02.180
  • which alludes to and refers to the historical Jesus.
  • 00:05:02.180 --> 00:05:06.140
  • That's one thing that kinda comes from the outside.
  • 00:05:06.140 --> 00:05:09.040
  • But then you've got the inside stuff, the gospels.
  • 00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:12.150
  • And for me one of the really striking things about
  • 00:05:12.150 --> 00:05:14.110
  • the gospels is yes they are four different accounts,
  • 00:05:14.110 --> 00:05:17.020
  • and there are differences between them,
  • 00:05:17.020 --> 00:05:19.040
  • but it's striking how much there is similarity between them.
  • 00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:22.270
  • That actually you've got things that
  • 00:05:22.270 --> 00:05:25.030
  • overlap between the four accounts.
  • 00:05:25.030 --> 00:05:26.190
  • - The New Testament is by far the most well-attested ancient
  • 00:05:26.190 --> 00:05:30.080
  • text we possess, and it's by miles, it's not even close.
  • 00:05:30.080 --> 00:05:34.030
  • A classic that has 200 manuscripts is considered to be
  • 00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:39.010
  • a significant number of manuscripts, for the new testament
  • 00:05:39.010 --> 00:05:42.270
  • we have over 58 hundred Greek manuscripts, we have another
  • 00:05:42.270 --> 00:05:46.030
  • eight thousand Latin manuscripts, that's part of what
  • 00:05:46.030 --> 00:05:48.230
  • produces the differences, because you're not dealing with
  • 00:05:48.230 --> 00:05:50.230
  • a Xerox machine, you aren't dealing with something that
  • 00:05:50.230 --> 00:05:53.180
  • mimeographs something, you're dealing with
  • 00:05:53.180 --> 00:05:55.210
  • a hand word by word copying situation.
  • 00:05:55.210 --> 00:05:59.090
  • Which introduces a lot of differences, sometimes spelling,
  • 00:05:59.090 --> 00:06:02.060
  • sometimes word order, that kind of thing, and none of that
  • 00:06:02.060 --> 00:06:06.000
  • impacts any of the core doctrines of the Christian faith.
  • 00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:08.250
  • It might impact how many verses teach something,
  • 00:06:08.250 --> 00:06:11.280
  • but it doesn't impact what the core teaching
  • 00:06:11.280 --> 00:06:13.270
  • of the Christian faith is all about.
  • 00:06:13.270 --> 00:06:14.280
  • - I found that these authors had
  • 00:06:14.280 --> 00:06:17.280
  • no motive to dismiss their testimony.
  • 00:06:17.280 --> 00:06:21.130
  • They weren't gaining power, there was no lust involved,
  • 00:06:21.130 --> 00:06:24.160
  • there was no money that they got out of this.
  • 00:06:24.160 --> 00:06:26.140
  • And so the New Testament authors, I found myself saying,
  • 00:06:26.140 --> 00:06:29.130
  • I have no reason to distrust what they're writing.
  • 00:06:29.130 --> 00:06:32.160
  • And in fact one of the passages that really impacted me,
  • 00:06:32.160 --> 00:06:36.240
  • even when I was not a believer, was the passage from Luke 1
  • 00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:41.060
  • where he clearly states his purpose for writing which is
  • 00:06:41.060 --> 00:06:44.230
  • that he checked all these things out, he investigated all
  • 00:06:44.230 --> 00:06:47.170
  • these things, so that he could report back to Theophilus
  • 00:06:47.170 --> 00:06:50.110
  • the certainty of the things that he had been taught.
  • 00:06:51.230 --> 00:06:54.110
  • - One of the great things about being alive right now is
  • 00:06:54.110 --> 00:06:56.240
  • we have more access to how history was done and how
  • 00:06:56.240 --> 00:07:00.180
  • writing happened in the first century
  • 00:07:00.180 --> 00:07:03.190
  • than people have had since the first century.
  • 00:07:03.190 --> 00:07:06.030
  • There's no other manuscript that has
  • 00:07:06.030 --> 00:07:08.140
  • the kind of documentation attached to it
  • 00:07:08.140 --> 00:07:10.280
  • that the New Testament records do.
  • 00:07:10.280 --> 00:07:12.280
  • So I think whether somebody finds themselves a believer
  • 00:07:12.280 --> 00:07:15.210
  • in God or not, the wealth of information that's available
  • 00:07:15.210 --> 00:07:19.100
  • on the manuscripts is very solid.
  • 00:07:19.100 --> 00:07:23.020
  • - Well in terms of what we know,
  • 00:07:23.020 --> 00:07:24.130
  • we've got the gospel accounts, so four biographies
  • 00:07:24.130 --> 00:07:26.090
  • of Jesus, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
  • 00:07:26.090 --> 00:07:28.130
  • We know they're eye witness biographies,
  • 00:07:28.130 --> 00:07:30.080
  • and John talks about his method in chapter 20.
  • 00:07:30.080 --> 00:07:32.290
  • He says, Jesus did these things, they were seen
  • 00:07:32.290 --> 00:07:36.020
  • by the disciples, the disciples wrote them down
  • 00:07:36.020 --> 00:07:39.020
  • so that you may believe and have life.
  • 00:07:39.020 --> 00:07:41.040
  • So there's a very clear process, there are stepping stones.
  • 00:07:41.040 --> 00:07:44.050
  • He did them, they were seen, they were written down,
  • 00:07:44.050 --> 00:07:47.260
  • so that you can believe and you can have life.
  • 00:07:47.260 --> 00:07:50.090
  • Now, what I've gotta just add on this one is that
  • 00:07:50.090 --> 00:07:52.100
  • we do as Christians believe in an open universe.
  • 00:07:52.100 --> 00:07:54.160
  • So we think God made the world,
  • 00:07:54.160 --> 00:07:56.150
  • and he can intervene in the world he made.
  • 00:07:56.150 --> 00:07:59.080
  • Now that means that there are miraculous things Jesus did,
  • 00:07:59.080 --> 00:08:02.260
  • but that's because in order to show that Jesus is his son,
  • 00:08:02.260 --> 00:08:06.200
  • he reverses the laws of nature.
  • 00:08:06.200 --> 00:08:08.210
  • He raises someone from the dead.
  • 00:08:08.210 --> 00:08:10.110
  • Now a lot of people look at that and says
  • 00:08:10.110 --> 00:08:11.200
  • well that just can't happen because
  • 00:08:11.200 --> 00:08:13.070
  • it's against the laws of nature.
  • 00:08:13.070 --> 00:08:14.220
  • And that's exactly the point!
  • 00:08:14.220 --> 00:08:16.080
  • It is against the laws of nature
  • 00:08:16.080 --> 00:08:17.280
  • so we'll know it's God's son.
  • 00:08:17.280 --> 00:08:19.110
  • - I do give thanks for the fact that we went to chapel
  • 00:08:26.140 --> 00:08:30.060
  • every morning, and I can still recite the words of the hymns
  • 00:08:30.060 --> 00:08:34.090
  • that we sang, and they're a great comfort to me now.
  • 00:08:34.090 --> 00:08:36.240
  • And in the end I think what God has done is to point to me
  • 00:08:36.240 --> 00:08:39.190
  • over the years and say, you know, I was with you then,
  • 00:08:39.190 --> 00:08:43.100
  • I showed you this then, you didn't see these things.
  • 00:08:43.100 --> 00:08:46.210
  • But they were there, I was there.
  • 00:08:46.210 --> 00:08:48.200
  • - And you went on in life, you got into economics
  • 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:52.040
  • as you said, building a career as a lecturer,
  • 00:08:52.040 --> 00:08:55.280
  • married, young children. - Yeah.
  • 00:08:55.280 --> 00:08:58.020
  • - Bit of a change, then, because your wife,
  • 00:08:58.020 --> 00:09:00.190
  • with you being negative about faith,
  • 00:09:00.190 --> 00:09:02.060
  • your wife actually became interested.
  • 00:09:02.060 --> 00:09:04.120
  • When she became interested, what was your response.
  • 00:09:04.120 --> 00:09:06.200
  • - Yeah.
  • 00:09:06.200 --> 00:09:07.270
  • Well my response was to be very angry.
  • 00:09:07.270 --> 00:09:09.100
  • I thought, arrogantly enough, that I knew about this.
  • 00:09:09.100 --> 00:09:13.140
  • And that there was nothing in it beyond
  • 00:09:13.140 --> 00:09:16.080
  • feel good or a basic ethical framework.
  • 00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:20.060
  • And I suppose I was, well I was hurt, I suppose,
  • 00:09:20.060 --> 00:09:24.180
  • I guess I might have been offended at some level
  • 00:09:24.180 --> 00:09:26.220
  • that my wife came to me and said,
  • 00:09:27.270 --> 00:09:29.120
  • well there isn't enough in my life just with you.
  • 00:09:29.120 --> 00:09:33.040
  • - And Ian, what's worse, that she wanted to go to church.
  • 00:09:33.040 --> 00:09:35.150
  • - Well, absolutely.
  • 00:09:35.150 --> 00:09:36.270
  • After all that that I'd been through.
  • 00:09:36.270 --> 00:09:39.140
  • And I said, well, what do you think you're doing?
  • 00:09:39.140 --> 00:09:42.290
  • And she said, I'm going to church,
  • 00:09:42.290 --> 00:09:45.200
  • and I'm taking our sons to church,
  • 00:09:45.200 --> 00:09:48.050
  • and you can do what you like.
  • 00:09:48.050 --> 00:09:50.060
  • So it was the first time in, what, nearly a dozen
  • 00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:53.060
  • years of marriage that she'd put to me,
  • 00:09:53.060 --> 00:09:56.060
  • it was then clear to me, put it this way, Karl,
  • 00:09:56.060 --> 00:09:58.180
  • that she meant exactly what she said.
  • 00:09:58.180 --> 00:10:00.240
  • So I yielded, and I went.
  • 00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:02.190
  • - How do we deal with truth in this?
  • 00:10:06.020 --> 00:10:07.220
  • Is it just a, how do I feel about it,
  • 00:10:07.220 --> 00:10:09.100
  • or is it reasonable to say, okay, this is true.
  • 00:10:09.100 --> 00:10:12.190
  • - Well truth is something that
  • 00:10:12.190 --> 00:10:13.270
  • we now have become skeptical about.
  • 00:10:13.270 --> 00:10:16.110
  • The rise of the sciences, in contrast,
  • 00:10:16.110 --> 00:10:18.180
  • offers a secure, safe way of knowing things
  • 00:10:18.180 --> 00:10:21.250
  • that isn't controversial in the same sort of ways
  • 00:10:21.250 --> 00:10:24.140
  • that some of these religious and moral truths are,
  • 00:10:24.140 --> 00:10:27.210
  • claims about right and wrong.
  • 00:10:27.210 --> 00:10:28.270
  • And so we have tended to back away from
  • 00:10:28.270 --> 00:10:31.170
  • truth claims and from confident in knowing
  • 00:10:31.170 --> 00:10:33.240
  • the truth in moral and religious areas.
  • 00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:37.030
  • And we've been terrified of those
  • 00:10:37.030 --> 00:10:39.210
  • who would claim to know the truth.
  • 00:10:39.210 --> 00:10:41.060
  • And so then when you say, let's consider a historical person
  • 00:10:41.060 --> 00:10:45.240
  • like Jesus who has all these religious and moral connections
  • 00:10:45.240 --> 00:10:49.130
  • it's like it sets off all these alarm bells
  • 00:10:49.130 --> 00:10:51.140
  • before we even open a book of history
  • 00:10:51.140 --> 00:10:53.100
  • to start to look into his character
  • 00:10:53.100 --> 00:10:55.100
  • and start to look into the evidence for him.
  • 00:10:55.100 --> 00:10:57.120
  • - In the records that you're referring to,
  • 00:10:57.120 --> 00:10:59.290
  • there's sometimes some disagreement between them.
  • 00:10:59.290 --> 00:11:02.200
  • How did you handle that as you were discovering
  • 00:11:02.200 --> 00:11:04.270
  • or looking at the veracity of the Bible?
  • 00:11:04.270 --> 00:11:07.230
  • - Disagreement in the documents from the New Testament.
  • 00:11:07.230 --> 00:11:10.010
  • Yeah
  • 00:11:10.010 --> 00:11:13.180
  • that Christians don't, they need to understand that
  • 00:11:13.180 --> 00:11:15.240
  • there are reports that seem like they don't match up.
  • 00:11:15.240 --> 00:11:19.230
  • And one of the ways that I came to understand
  • 00:11:19.230 --> 00:11:22.290
  • what actually is going on is first that
  • 00:11:22.290 --> 00:11:25.180
  • we don't report things in the 20th and 21st century
  • 00:11:25.180 --> 00:11:29.090
  • like they did in the first century or in ancient times.
  • 00:11:29.090 --> 00:11:32.010
  • We expect it to be completely accurate, match up,
  • 00:11:32.010 --> 00:11:35.160
  • no personal influence on it and our way of seeing the story.
  • 00:11:35.160 --> 00:11:39.230
  • We want it objective, not that we always get that
  • 00:11:39.230 --> 00:11:42.270
  • in our day and age, but that's what we're saying we want.
  • 00:11:42.270 --> 00:11:45.260
  • And that's just not a realistic perspective
  • 00:11:45.260 --> 00:11:48.120
  • for the context of the ancient culture
  • 00:11:48.120 --> 00:11:51.180
  • and the environment in which they're giving.
  • 00:11:51.180 --> 00:11:53.270
  • - I like to use the example of instant replay.
  • 00:11:53.270 --> 00:11:56.020
  • I know you have instant replay for cricket
  • 00:11:56.020 --> 00:11:57.200
  • and for Aussie rules and that kind of thing.
  • 00:11:57.200 --> 00:12:00.120
  • And the more angles you have,
  • 00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:02.020
  • the better look you get at what's going on.
  • 00:12:02.020 --> 00:12:04.160
  • Some angles will answer the question that you're looking at
  • 00:12:04.160 --> 00:12:07.210
  • in terms of what the call should be, and others won't
  • 00:12:07.210 --> 00:12:09.200
  • because they just don't give you the right angle.
  • 00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:12.040
  • So you get these differences between the gospels,
  • 00:12:12.040 --> 00:12:14.230
  • and what skeptics will tend to exploit as
  • 00:12:14.230 --> 00:12:17.190
  • contradiction actually may be only difference.
  • 00:12:17.190 --> 00:12:20.100
  • And may only be a different angle on things.
  • 00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:23.220
  • - I think one of the really important things
  • 00:12:40.210 --> 00:12:42.070
  • about the gospels is that the theme of
  • 00:12:42.070 --> 00:12:44.000
  • Jesus being God runs all the way through.
  • 00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:47.010
  • So you have themes in the birth narrative,
  • 00:12:47.010 --> 00:12:49.180
  • you have the things that Jesus says.
  • 00:12:49.180 --> 00:12:51.120
  • But for me one of the really
  • 00:12:51.120 --> 00:12:52.200
  • important things are the miracles.
  • 00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:54.260
  • And one of the things that happens these days is
  • 00:12:54.260 --> 00:12:56.180
  • we get really caught up with whether the miracles happened
  • 00:12:56.180 --> 00:12:58.280
  • and how they fit with science, and that can distract us from
  • 00:12:58.280 --> 00:13:01.240
  • one of the things that is for me the most important thing.
  • 00:13:01.240 --> 00:13:04.230
  • God is the god who created the world.
  • 00:13:04.230 --> 00:13:07.000
  • So what's a creator going to do?
  • 00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:08.140
  • Well, a creator's gonna heal people.
  • 00:13:08.140 --> 00:13:10.260
  • The god who was able to still the storms of chaos
  • 00:13:10.260 --> 00:13:13.080
  • right at the dawn of time, well that god's
  • 00:13:13.080 --> 00:13:15.090
  • gonna be able to still the storm.
  • 00:13:15.090 --> 00:13:17.020
  • So actually the miracles' telling us that Jesus is god,
  • 00:13:17.020 --> 00:13:19.140
  • they're just telling us in a slightly different way.
  • 00:13:19.140 --> 00:13:22.000
  • - Jesus wasn't the first kinda religious,
  • 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:23.230
  • spiritual figure even in his time or since.
  • 00:13:23.230 --> 00:13:25.270
  • So how does Jesus differ from kinda the, many of the
  • 00:13:25.270 --> 00:13:28.190
  • religious or spiritual figures that we see in history?
  • 00:13:28.190 --> 00:13:31.110
  • - That's a great question, I think,
  • 00:13:31.110 --> 00:13:33.110
  • well, there are many answers to it.
  • 00:13:33.110 --> 00:13:34.280
  • But I think the first thing that
  • 00:13:34.280 --> 00:13:36.180
  • I'd say is that he dies on a cross.
  • 00:13:36.180 --> 00:13:38.290
  • This great teacher comes, and then the culmination
  • 00:13:38.290 --> 00:13:42.080
  • of his mission is he's naked up on a cross.
  • 00:13:42.080 --> 00:13:45.200
  • Well what do you make of that?
  • 00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:47.010
  • Because all the other teachers, they draw men to them,
  • 00:13:47.010 --> 00:13:49.270
  • and other people do things for them.
  • 00:13:49.270 --> 00:13:52.140
  • But Jesus comes as this teacher
  • 00:13:52.140 --> 00:13:54.160
  • and he does something for me, he dies on the cross for me.
  • 00:13:54.160 --> 00:13:58.120
  • The heart of his ministry is he does that.
  • 00:13:58.120 --> 00:14:00.090
  • He then rises from the dead, so Good Friday and Easter Day
  • 00:14:00.090 --> 00:14:04.000
  • are the things that make it extraordinary,
  • 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:06.080
  • because by rising from the dead he opens up eternity.
  • 00:14:06.080 --> 00:14:09.090
  • - The thing that of course changes everything
  • 00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:13.040
  • is Jesus' death and resurrection.
  • 00:14:13.040 --> 00:14:15.150
  • Jesus could have come and been a wise teacher,
  • 00:14:15.150 --> 00:14:18.030
  • but he'd have just been a vaguely interesting
  • 00:14:18.030 --> 00:14:19.190
  • person, wouldn't he, at that point?
  • 00:14:19.190 --> 00:14:21.130
  • The thing that makes the difference
  • 00:14:21.130 --> 00:14:23.000
  • is that Jesus died and rose again.
  • 00:14:23.000 --> 00:14:24.210
  • - So the minister decided to meet with you?
  • 00:14:26.150 --> 00:14:29.000
  • - [Ian] That's right.
  • 00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:30.140
  • - What did you do, how did he explain it to you?
  • 00:14:30.140 --> 00:14:32.130
  • - Well he said, is it your honor,
  • 00:14:32.130 --> 00:14:34.180
  • and I said what does that mean?
  • 00:14:34.180 --> 00:14:35.250
  • And he said, have you got a Bible at home
  • 00:14:35.250 --> 00:14:37.210
  • and I said yes I do, I guess somewhere.
  • 00:14:37.210 --> 00:14:39.220
  • And he said right, he said are you free Tuesday night?
  • 00:14:39.220 --> 00:14:42.050
  • And I said I could be, and he says good.
  • 00:14:42.050 --> 00:14:43.210
  • He says good, he says get the Bible, he says read the first
  • 00:14:43.210 --> 00:14:45.280
  • two chapters of a book called Mark, he says you'll find it
  • 00:14:45.280 --> 00:14:48.010
  • toward the end of the Bible, he says I'll be there
  • 00:14:48.010 --> 00:14:49.220
  • at half past seven and we can talk about it.
  • 00:14:49.220 --> 00:14:52.130
  • Which I did, and we then worked our way through
  • 00:14:52.130 --> 00:14:56.060
  • the Book of Mark for the next whatever it was,
  • 00:14:56.060 --> 00:14:58.130
  • seven or eight weeks.
  • 00:14:58.130 --> 00:14:59.270
  • And I said well, I'll tell you this much, I said,
  • 00:14:59.270 --> 00:15:01.170
  • I don't think that it's been made up.
  • 00:15:01.170 --> 00:15:04.250
  • Particularly when Jesus gets very irritated
  • 00:15:04.250 --> 00:15:07.070
  • and impatient with the disciples, you know,
  • 00:15:07.070 --> 00:15:08.260
  • how long have I gotta put up with
  • 00:15:08.260 --> 00:15:09.290
  • you people, that type of thing.
  • 00:15:09.290 --> 00:15:11.040
  • You think, you wouldn't put that in there.
  • 00:15:11.040 --> 00:15:13.050
  • - You talked before about the disciples
  • 00:15:19.000 --> 00:15:20.290
  • being afraid, not sure of the future.
  • 00:15:20.290 --> 00:15:24.230
  • What did Jesus leave, 'cause he
  • 00:15:24.230 --> 00:15:26.190
  • didn't leave a great deal, did he?
  • 00:15:26.190 --> 00:15:29.020
  • - Yeah, he didn't have an inheritance to leave behind
  • 00:15:29.020 --> 00:15:31.280
  • as far as material things, but what he left behind
  • 00:15:31.280 --> 00:15:35.200
  • was a group of individuals who were,
  • 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:39.020
  • they were convinced that he was the son of God.
  • 00:15:39.020 --> 00:15:42.040
  • They were convinced that he had brought forth
  • 00:15:42.040 --> 00:15:45.110
  • a new era of redemption for mankind.
  • 00:15:45.110 --> 00:15:49.080
  • They were convinced that the kingdom of heaven had
  • 00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:51.130
  • come to Earth, and they were willing to go to their deaths
  • 00:15:51.130 --> 00:15:56.130
  • to give other people what they believed was the truth
  • 00:15:57.260 --> 00:16:00.190
  • about reality of this universe,
  • 00:16:00.190 --> 00:16:03.020
  • that Jesus had come in for salvation of mankind.
  • 00:16:03.020 --> 00:16:06.060
  • And that's, we could talk about what did he leave behind,
  • 00:16:06.060 --> 00:16:10.240
  • that is the great inheritance that he left
  • 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:14.030
  • in this small group of individuals
  • 00:16:14.030 --> 00:16:16.150
  • who then went out and shared it with the world.
  • 00:16:16.150 --> 00:16:18.230
  • (contemplative piano music)
  • 00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:26.100
  • - When Jesus left Earth, he didn't
  • 00:16:28.110 --> 00:16:30.250
  • actually leave a great deal, did he?
  • 00:16:30.250 --> 00:16:32.120
  • What was left?
  • 00:16:32.120 --> 00:16:34.070
  • - Nothing but his teaching.
  • 00:16:34.070 --> 00:16:35.270
  • Basically he left disciples, and what is interesting is
  • 00:16:37.280 --> 00:16:42.260
  • is that this rather motley crew of very average people
  • 00:16:42.260 --> 00:16:47.000
  • ended up being impacted so significantly by Jesus
  • 00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:50.230
  • and being able to communicate that impact significantly
  • 00:16:50.230 --> 00:16:54.080
  • enough that within three centuries, the Roman Empire is
  • 00:16:54.080 --> 00:16:58.260
  • on the way out, but the Christian church is on the way in.
  • 00:16:58.260 --> 00:17:02.220
  • They were a little Galilean Jews tucked away
  • 00:17:02.220 --> 00:17:05.070
  • in a corner of the Greco-Roman empire.
  • 00:17:05.070 --> 00:17:07.220
  • If you had asked how important they were at a social level
  • 00:17:07.220 --> 00:17:10.190
  • or whatever, they come and go, they're here and they die.
  • 00:17:10.190 --> 00:17:14.160
  • There was nothing to indicate that there would be
  • 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:17.040
  • something of significance coming out of this group.
  • 00:17:17.040 --> 00:17:19.220
  • - Well at the end of his ministry, he leaves his
  • 00:17:19.220 --> 00:17:21.230
  • resurrection, so there's no end to his ministry.
  • 00:17:21.230 --> 00:17:24.250
  • That's what I'd say.
  • 00:17:24.250 --> 00:17:26.250
  • So Jesus lived and taught, he had a band of followers,
  • 00:17:26.250 --> 00:17:29.110
  • he's tried in a Roman and Jewish court,
  • 00:17:29.110 --> 00:17:31.090
  • he's sentenced to die, they string him up on a cross,
  • 00:17:31.090 --> 00:17:34.230
  • they take him off the cross, they certify him as dead.
  • 00:17:34.230 --> 00:17:37.110
  • He's put in a tomb, and then three days later
  • 00:17:37.110 --> 00:17:40.140
  • he's walking around again, again, it's an open universe.
  • 00:17:40.140 --> 00:17:42.290
  • God has intervened and raised his son from the dead.
  • 00:17:42.290 --> 00:17:45.230
  • So Christian faith is three things,
  • 00:17:45.230 --> 00:17:47.130
  • it's information, it's agreement with
  • 00:17:47.130 --> 00:17:50.080
  • the information, and then it's trust in it.
  • 00:17:50.080 --> 00:17:52.120
  • Information, Jesus rises from the dead.
  • 00:17:52.120 --> 00:17:54.160
  • Agreement, well it's against the laws of nature
  • 00:17:54.160 --> 00:17:57.130
  • but I can't see what else happened on that Easter weekend.
  • 00:17:57.130 --> 00:18:00.140
  • Trust, I now act on that, I now follow it.
  • 00:18:00.140 --> 00:18:03.090
  • So what does Jesus leave,
  • 00:18:03.090 --> 00:18:04.210
  • he leaves himself risen from the dead.
  • 00:18:04.210 --> 00:18:08.080
  • By his spirit, his followers come to know him.
  • 00:18:08.080 --> 00:18:11.040
  • But objectively, intellectually,
  • 00:18:11.040 --> 00:18:13.150
  • we can check out the resurrection.
  • 00:18:13.150 --> 00:18:15.060
  • - What every individual needs to consider is not just
  • 00:18:16.200 --> 00:18:19.130
  • whether or not Jesus was an historical figure,
  • 00:18:19.130 --> 00:18:21.060
  • but why is he so significant in peoples' lives?
  • 00:18:21.060 --> 00:18:24.180
  • And one of the archetypal stories in the New Testament
  • 00:18:24.180 --> 00:18:27.190
  • who started off, his name was Saul and became Paul.
  • 00:18:27.190 --> 00:18:31.010
  • And many people know he was actually
  • 00:18:31.010 --> 00:18:33.100
  • throwing Christians into prison.
  • 00:18:33.100 --> 00:18:35.250
  • And he was on his way to Damascus
  • 00:18:35.250 --> 00:18:37.040
  • and he had this remarkable experience.
  • 00:18:37.040 --> 00:18:39.000
  • God just changed his life.
  • 00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:41.080
  • And it wasn't just that he decided to follow Jesus,
  • 00:18:41.080 --> 00:18:43.110
  • he became this missionary that changed the known world.
  • 00:18:43.110 --> 00:18:48.080
  • Everybody has to ask the question why such a significant
  • 00:18:48.080 --> 00:18:52.130
  • influence, why was Jesus a game changer in Paul's life?
  • 00:18:52.130 --> 00:18:57.120
  • And it's not just that it happened to Paul,
  • 00:18:58.180 --> 00:18:59.270
  • it's been happening time and time and time again.
  • 00:18:59.270 --> 00:19:02.120
  • Millions of people over two thousand years
  • 00:19:02.120 --> 00:19:06.010
  • have had their lives revolutionized by Jesus.
  • 00:19:06.010 --> 00:19:09.170
  • - People feel like, if I can't believe in God
  • 00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:15.250
  • or I can't believe that Jesus is the son of God,
  • 00:19:15.250 --> 00:19:18.050
  • then I guess I'm out of luck, I'm on the outside.
  • 00:19:18.050 --> 00:19:20.290
  • And what I'd say to those folks is no,
  • 00:19:20.290 --> 00:19:22.270
  • here's where Jesus is the game changer,
  • 00:19:22.270 --> 00:19:24.250
  • he comes as he came two thousand years ago.
  • 00:19:24.250 --> 00:19:27.250
  • And he says words nobody else would think to say.
  • 00:19:29.060 --> 00:19:33.130
  • And he tells stories about how things are
  • 00:19:33.130 --> 00:19:36.070
  • that continue to haunt the human race.
  • 00:19:36.070 --> 00:19:38.050
  • And there's people who are intrigued by this,
  • 00:19:39.210 --> 00:19:41.200
  • they get woke up, they're dissatisfied,
  • 00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:43.120
  • they're hungry, they're thirsty, they're restless.
  • 00:19:43.120 --> 00:19:45.270
  • And they say, I think I will give him a try.
  • 00:19:47.030 --> 00:19:49.080
  • I think I will try to do what he says.
  • 00:19:50.230 --> 00:19:53.250
  • And as they step into that they discover it's true.
  • 00:19:55.080 --> 00:19:58.050
  • It's real.
  • 00:19:59.180 --> 00:20:00.130
  • There is this god, I am more than what I see.
  • 00:20:01.180 --> 00:20:04.140
  • - I was transformed, I come from a tobacco family,
  • 00:20:10.200 --> 00:20:13.030
  • not a Christian family at all.
  • 00:20:13.030 --> 00:20:14.170
  • My godfather gets killed in a cliff fall
  • 00:20:18.060 --> 00:20:19.290
  • when I'm 16 years old, no one has an answer to death,
  • 00:20:19.290 --> 00:20:22.150
  • no one's spoken to me about death,
  • 00:20:22.150 --> 00:20:24.060
  • a maths teacher says, when Christ rose from the dead
  • 00:20:24.060 --> 00:20:26.240
  • he rose to get you through death.
  • 00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:28.200
  • I'm going, well if that's true
  • 00:20:28.200 --> 00:20:29.260
  • it's the most important thing in the world.
  • 00:20:29.260 --> 00:20:31.070
  • And I'm changed at that point.
  • 00:20:31.070 --> 00:20:33.120
  • I've buried nine of my school friends.
  • 00:20:35.000 --> 00:20:36.280
  • What do you do when you stand
  • 00:20:38.130 --> 00:20:39.200
  • at the grave of a school friend?
  • 00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:41.290
  • Well you've got one thing to say, in Christ, there's hope.
  • 00:20:41.290 --> 00:20:45.010
  • You can see this person again if they've trusted in Jesus.
  • 00:20:45.010 --> 00:20:47.190
  • Well that changes the world, because life's very brief.
  • 00:20:47.190 --> 00:20:50.220
  • - My connection to Christianity came as a result of
  • 00:20:55.030 --> 00:20:59.100
  • a band director, a high school band director,
  • 00:20:59.100 --> 00:21:01.190
  • that I viewed kinda like another father of mine.
  • 00:21:01.190 --> 00:21:04.090
  • I'm a musician, I was in the band
  • 00:21:04.090 --> 00:21:06.180
  • and I ended up teaching band in the public schools.
  • 00:21:06.180 --> 00:21:09.220
  • So he actually, in my senior year
  • 00:21:09.220 --> 00:21:13.120
  • gave me a bible and said, Mary Jo, when you go off
  • 00:21:13.120 --> 00:21:16.210
  • to college you're gonna have some hard questions,
  • 00:21:16.210 --> 00:21:19.120
  • and I hope you'll turn to this.
  • 00:21:19.120 --> 00:21:21.010
  • And that was the extent of it.
  • 00:21:21.010 --> 00:21:22.210
  • And at that moment in my life, I had some very
  • 00:21:22.210 --> 00:21:26.190
  • tough questions, like is this all there is?
  • 00:21:26.190 --> 00:21:30.000
  • Am I really just a collection of atoms
  • 00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:33.000
  • in a vast, indifferent universe?
  • 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:34.180
  • 'Cause that's what I'd learned!
  • 00:21:34.180 --> 00:21:36.000
  • And that's my upbringing.
  • 00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:37.090
  • - So did you start reading it?
  • 00:21:37.090 --> 00:21:38.140
  • - I did start reading it.
  • 00:21:38.140 --> 00:21:40.070
  • It was a NIV one year, so it had a plan for every day.
  • 00:21:40.070 --> 00:21:44.090
  • And the thing that was exciting to me was
  • 00:21:44.090 --> 00:21:46.240
  • as I started reading through these days,
  • 00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:49.030
  • I realized that Christianity was not what I'd seen on TV.
  • 00:21:49.030 --> 00:21:52.170
  • It was not as it's portrayed in the movies.
  • 00:21:52.170 --> 00:21:55.140
  • It was so much more, and it was from reading the Bible
  • 00:21:55.140 --> 00:21:58.030
  • that I started to get a deeper understanding, and realized
  • 00:21:58.030 --> 00:22:00.070
  • that I had a very shallow view of the Christian faith.
  • 00:22:00.070 --> 00:22:04.210
  • And so I actually sped through, like I couldn't just read
  • 00:22:04.210 --> 00:22:08.060
  • the day, that day's reading, I sped through it.
  • 00:22:08.060 --> 00:22:11.100
  • And reading through that Bible
  • 00:22:11.100 --> 00:22:13.230
  • brought me around to belief in God.
  • 00:22:13.230 --> 00:22:15.210
  • It didn't get me all the way to Jesus, though.
  • 00:22:16.270 --> 00:22:18.110
  • - So what did get you there?
  • 00:22:18.110 --> 00:22:20.010
  • - Well I went off to college, on my own,
  • 00:22:20.010 --> 00:22:23.240
  • and without my family nearby, I moved halfway
  • 00:22:23.240 --> 00:22:27.120
  • across the United States to go to school.
  • 00:22:27.120 --> 00:22:30.010
  • And I thought, you know what, this is my chance to go
  • 00:22:30.010 --> 00:22:32.070
  • and figure out what this church thing is all about
  • 00:22:32.070 --> 00:22:34.160
  • and what people have to say about belief in God.
  • 00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:37.160
  • And so I started going to churches on my own.
  • 00:22:37.160 --> 00:22:39.140
  • And it was when I finally got to a church where
  • 00:22:39.140 --> 00:22:42.080
  • I heard what Christians would say is the good news,
  • 00:22:42.080 --> 00:22:46.120
  • where I heard and understood my position
  • 00:22:46.120 --> 00:22:49.210
  • as being in need of a savior.
  • 00:22:49.210 --> 00:22:51.240
  • And once I understood what Jesus did for me,
  • 00:22:51.240 --> 00:22:54.150
  • once I understood that he was the savior,
  • 00:22:54.150 --> 00:22:57.050
  • that's when I trusted in him for my own salvation.
  • 00:22:57.050 --> 00:23:00.140
  • - C.S. Lewis says, he gets into a sidecar in Oxford not a
  • 00:23:02.190 --> 00:23:06.010
  • Christian, he gets out of a sidecar in London a Christian.
  • 00:23:06.010 --> 00:23:09.140
  • I'm a bit the same.
  • 00:23:09.140 --> 00:23:11.110
  • There was a change, a strange warming of my heart
  • 00:23:11.110 --> 00:23:15.150
  • I think is the way John or Charles Wesley
  • 00:23:15.150 --> 00:23:18.050
  • describes the same type of thing.
  • 00:23:18.050 --> 00:23:20.080
  • It's God's grace in conversion,
  • 00:23:20.080 --> 00:23:22.000
  • as Paul describes, it's an act of God.
  • 00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:24.190
  • In my case, yeah, this was probably three months after
  • 00:23:24.190 --> 00:23:29.050
  • this process had started, and we were going to church
  • 00:23:29.050 --> 00:23:32.250
  • on Christmas day, as it turned out.
  • 00:23:32.250 --> 00:23:35.200
  • And there I was, and we'd been through all of this
  • 00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:37.230
  • discussion and I'd been thinking about these things,
  • 00:23:37.230 --> 00:23:41.250
  • and John was preaching, he preached about Jesus as prophet,
  • 00:23:41.250 --> 00:23:46.250
  • priest and king, and the three gifts and all of that.
  • 00:23:48.070 --> 00:23:49.230
  • And then there was a call to communion.
  • 00:23:50.280 --> 00:23:53.190
  • This was an Anglican church, which I insisted on
  • 00:23:53.190 --> 00:23:56.060
  • 'cause I went to an Anglican school.
  • 00:23:56.060 --> 00:23:58.090
  • And there was a call to communion.
  • 00:23:58.090 --> 00:24:00.130
  • And as people went up, I'd never taken communion
  • 00:24:01.250 --> 00:24:03.120
  • prior to that time, in fact I didn't take it at school
  • 00:24:03.120 --> 00:24:05.110
  • either, I just didn't think it was right
  • 00:24:05.110 --> 00:24:07.120
  • since I didn't believe or understand what was going on.
  • 00:24:07.120 --> 00:24:10.010
  • But now I'd been through this and it was a call to communion
  • 00:24:10.010 --> 00:24:12.120
  • and I didn't go up for a while.
  • 00:24:12.120 --> 00:24:15.000
  • And then I looked and I saw people gathering at the
  • 00:24:16.160 --> 00:24:18.230
  • front of the church, and I saw John there administering
  • 00:24:18.230 --> 00:24:21.210
  • and I thought, hmph, what do you know.
  • 00:24:21.210 --> 00:24:25.160
  • It's actually true.
  • 00:24:27.070 --> 00:24:28.070
  • So I got up and I went forward, and I kneeled at the rail.
  • 00:24:29.180 --> 00:24:34.140
  • And John came along of course, and he saw me there.
  • 00:24:35.250 --> 00:24:40.080
  • He offered me the bread and offered me the wine,
  • 00:24:40.080 --> 00:24:44.030
  • and I went back to my seat.
  • 00:24:45.050 --> 00:24:47.120
  • And immediately after the service, he came down.
  • 00:24:47.120 --> 00:24:50.160
  • And he said, you took communion today.
  • 00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:53.030
  • And I said, that's right, I did.
  • 00:24:53.290 --> 00:24:56.150
  • He said, why?
  • 00:24:56.150 --> 00:24:58.080
  • And I said,
  • 00:24:58.080 --> 00:24:59.030
  • because it's true.
  • 00:25:00.130 --> 00:25:01.130
  • He's pulling me up
  • 00:25:03.230 --> 00:25:08.230
  • Swimming in the love of life
  • 00:25:09.270 --> 00:25:13.180
  • He's pulling me up
  • 00:25:13.180 --> 00:25:18.180
  • Swimming in the love of life
  • 00:25:19.230 --> 00:25:23.200
  • He's pulling me under
  • 00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:28.200
  • Swimming in the love of life
  • 00:25:29.230 --> 00:25:33.250
  • He's pulling me up
  • 00:25:33.250 --> 00:25:38.240
  • He's pulling me under
  • 00:25:43.100 --> 00:25:48.100
  • Swimming the love of life
  • 00:25:49.230 --> 00:25:53.180
  • He's pulling me up
  • 00:25:53.180 --> 00:25:58.180
  • Swimming in the love of life
  • 00:25:59.230 --> 00:26:03.210
  • He's pulling me under
  • 00:26:03.210 --> 00:26:08.200
  • Swimming in the love of life
  • 00:26:09.170 --> 00:26:13.140
  • (upbeat instrumental music)
  • 00:26:15.030 --> 00:26:18.220