Episode 8 | Leadership | TBN

Episode 8 | Leadership

Watch Episode 8 | Leadership
October 23, 2018
26:34

Jesus the Game Changer

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Episode 8 | Leadership

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  • - [Karl Faase] Author and researcher Jim Collins
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  • wrote a very influential book called Good to Great.
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  • It looked at why some companies move
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  • from being good companies to great companies.
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  • He discovered two things about the CEOs of those companies.
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  • Firstly, they had fierce resolve.
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  • But secondly, they were actually humble.
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  • Now what Collins discovered in that area
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  • we see in a number of different areas.
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  • In our politicians, we like confidence,
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  • but we don't like arrogance.
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  • We want them to actually give the impression
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  • they're serving the community.
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  • We want people, our heroes, to be those
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  • who sacrifice to people around them.
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  • We can actually trace that shift
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  • where humility became a virtue,
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  • and we can trace it back to Jesus.
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  • - [John Ortberg] When Jesus would say things like
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  • "the gentiles lord it over others,"
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  • he was not being pejorative, he was being descriptive.
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  • You know, if followers of the Greco-Roman culture
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  • were to hear those words, they would say,
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  • yeah, that's exactly what we do.
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  • And it's a little bit like in our day,
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  • somebody scores a touchdown, it's like, of course I'm great.
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  • So this notion of saying,
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  • no, actually, greatness is servanthood,
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  • greatness is to be a slave,
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  • nobody in the ancient Greco-Roman world, nobody,
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  • Plato said how can anyone be content if they're a slave.
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  • Nobody was talking about greatness
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  • in terms of servanthood and slavery and humbling themselves
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  • in the way that Jesus was.
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  • And over time, the attractiveness of that idea,
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  • the power of it, took root.
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  • And so, we kinda take it for granted.
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  • We live as if, of course, everybody's always thought
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  • that to be humble is a wonderful thing.
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  • That's not the case.
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  • That's an idea that came from somewhere.
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  • - We're looking at the area of leadership and hero figures.
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  • What were the leaders of Jesus' time like?
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  • - Well, they were very strong military figures.
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  • They had to be.
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  • Because the point about the Roman Empire
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  • was that it had to establish Roman principles
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  • across a very very hostile area.
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  • So they were strong, they were fierce,
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  • they were military leaders.
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  • And for me one of the really interesting things
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  • is to contrast Jesus' understanding of peace
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  • with the Roman understanding of peace.
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  • The Romans were very proud of what they called Pax Romana,
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  • which is the Peace of Rome.
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  • And effectively what they'd done
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  • is they'd established this period
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  • of great peace and tranquility, mostly,
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  • across the Roman Empire.
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  • And they did it by squashing any kind of opposition.
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  • They came in hard, they came in fast with their armies,
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  • and they just wiped out anyone who disagreed with them.
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  • - The folks that were admired, generally,
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  • they were courageous,
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  • there was a lot that we would look up to as well.
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  • They were smart, they were industrious, they were effective.
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  • But humility was not looked on
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  • as a virtue in the ancient world.
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  • In fact, Aristotle would say
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  • that the great-souled person would avoid,
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  • for example, gratitude.
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  • Because I don't wanna feel like I'm indebted to anybody.
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  • I'd want you to feel like you're indebted to me.
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  • But if I was to express a sense
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  • of being indebted to you,
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  • that was seen as a diminished of myself as a person.
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  • - John, we wanna talk about leadership
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  • and how people view leadership.
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  • In the Greco-Roman world,
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  • how did people view leadership then?
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  • - Well there were different kinds of leaders.
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  • And I think you can tell what a culture really values
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  • by the leaders that it elevates and honors.
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  • And surely there were philosophers
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  • who were regarded as great leaders.
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  • You know, Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, and so on.
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  • And so these were revered for their intellectual prowess.
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  • And were honored as such.
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  • But certainly by the time of the First Century,
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  • it was pretty much a military culture.
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  • And so, in Greece and Rome,
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  • which had had centuries of very little but fighting people
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  • and establishing their rule over different kinds of people,
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  • by that period, the greatest leaders
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  • were of course the military leaders.
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  • And this blended with the, kind of,
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  • the early imperial period,
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  • where the great emperors were military.
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  • I mean, you almost by definition had to be
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  • a military man to be emperor.
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  • So of course we all know about Julius Caesar, Augustus.
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  • And so this ability to conquer
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  • was at the heart of leadership
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  • for Greeks and Romans in this very period.
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  • Wealth, I think, would be another marker of a great leader.
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  • And so if someone were exceedingly wealthy,
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  • which probably meant their family
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  • was well-connected with power,
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  • then they were also accorded honor
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  • and were regarded as leaders and benefactors.
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  • So they were people that you could hang off
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  • and receive the crumbs from their table, as it were.
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  • So philosophy, military, political power, and wealth
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  • were what leadership fundamentally was about.
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  • - What about the gods, the Greek gods,
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  • the kinda religious foundation of the community?
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  • How did that influence their view of leadership?
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  • - Well of course, the Greek gods were warriors.
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  • And so, you read the Iliad,
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  • which is, you know, the classic Greek text,
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  • and the Greek gods are very good warriors.
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  • And so, there's a sense in which
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  • they led the way in military prowess.
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  • But one would better describe that as
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  • the gods reflected the ideals of Greece,
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  • the military Greece.
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  • But the curious thing about ancient Greek and Roman religion
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  • compared to the modern notion of religion
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  • is that ethics wasn't really connected to god.
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  • The gods weren't that interested in how you lived
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  • other than that you gave them due honor,
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  • through offerings, through the various rituals,
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  • through marking the days that were set aside for that god.
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  • But how I treated you was just not part of the mix.
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  • The connection between ethics and belief in god
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  • is one given by Judaism and inherited by Christianity,
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  • and via that, given to the Western World.
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  • Our very notion of religion is different
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  • from how Greeks and Romans viewed it.
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  • - [Eric Metaxas] The only model of leadership that existed
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  • was, you know, crush your enemies and roll forward.
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  • And Jesus, he changed that.
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  • He basically said we're supposed to love our enemies,
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  • and that puts everybody, you know,
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  • it stops everyone, because the last thing
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  • people normally would think of to do is to love their enemy.
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  • So you suddenly think, well what does he mean by that?
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  • And what he's doing is he's making me understand
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  • that I'm no better than my enemy.
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  • I just maybe have been blessed
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  • to know something that they don't know,
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  • and so I've got to treat them
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  • the way I would want to be treated
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  • if the shoe were on the other foot.
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  • And he's saying, you're all my children
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  • and I want you to treat each other this way.
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  • - So Paula, we have found humility is a virtue,
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  • which wasn't really the case in the time of Jesus.
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  • - [Paula] Oh absolutely not.
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  • In the time of Jesus, humility was the opposite,
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  • it was a vice, really.
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  • It was that in order to be somebody important
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  • you needed to appear in all ways to be important.
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  • Humility would've been just an awful idea for them.
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  • - So it's a real change in how
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  • leadership was framed up within the community.
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  • - [Paula] Absolutely.
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  • And the reason why that is is because it works.
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  • It's the right thing that happens.
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  • When you have any kind of grouping together,
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  • if people can act to each other in humility,
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  • then actually it completely changes
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  • the atmosphere, the feeling,
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  • the way in which they relate to each other.
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  • - So Jesus comes into that culture.
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  • How did he shift our thinking about leadership?
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  • 'Cause it was quite crucial, wasn't it?
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  • - Well, Jesus comes into an environment
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  • where you've got the greatest empire
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  • the world had ever known,
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  • an empire that eclipsed the Greek Empire.
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  • And no one thought anything could
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  • eclipse the Greek Empire,
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  • Alexander the Great and so on.
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  • But the Roman infrastructure brought
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  • such an amazing hold on the Mediterranean and beyond.
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  • So everyone knew who was in charge.
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  • And Jesus is born into this very powerful context.
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  • But he's part of a very different tradition.
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  • He doesn't come from the Greek and Roman tradition.
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  • He comes from the Jewish tradition,
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  • which had begun already,
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  • in the later prophets of the Old Testament,
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  • begun to say really bizarre things
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  • like God likes the poor.
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  • And even God likes the humble.
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  • But in those texts, the humble are really the humbled,
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  • those who have been crushed by oppressors.
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  • But you've got this beginning motif
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  • of the god of the universe
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  • actually having quite a soft spot
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  • for those who are down low, who have been crushed low.
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  • So Jesus comes into this enormous empire
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  • from his own Jewish tradition
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  • knowing that God loves the humbled.
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  • But the curious thing that Jesus
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  • adds to that Jewish tradition
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  • is the decision to be humble.
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  • Not simply to be humbled by outside forces,
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  • but a decision to lower yourself for the sake of another.
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  • And he said very humble-oriented things like,
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  • you know, whoever wants to be
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  • first among you must be your slave.
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  • He said "Even I did not come to be served but to serve."
  • 00:10:19.120 --> 00:10:22.070
  • And so he said things that turned upside down
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  • what you'd normally expect of leadership.
  • 00:10:26.010 --> 00:10:28.070
  • - How did Jesus talk about humility?
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  • What did he either say or do
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  • that actually kinda put that on the agenda?
  • 00:10:39.160 --> 00:10:41.280
  • - Paul's talking about Jesus
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  • and talking about his greatness.
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  • But the way that he describes that is
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  • who being in the very form of God,
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  • I had a Greek New Testament teacher when I was in college
  • 00:10:52.190 --> 00:10:56.170
  • and he talked about that passage.
  • 00:10:56.170 --> 00:10:59.060
  • Paul uses a little participle, "being in the form of God."
  • 00:10:59.060 --> 00:11:03.110
  • And you have to figure out,
  • 00:11:03.110 --> 00:11:05.050
  • how should we translate that participle?
  • 00:11:05.050 --> 00:11:07.150
  • And sometimes it's translated as a concessive,
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  • although he was in the form of God.
  • 00:11:09.280 --> 00:11:12.190
  • My old teacher Dr. Hawthorne said
  • 00:11:12.190 --> 00:11:13.290
  • actually the best translation of it is
  • 00:11:13.290 --> 00:11:16.040
  • "who precisely because he was in the form of God
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  • "made himself nothing."
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  • Took the form of a servant.
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  • Because when Jesus became a servant,
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  • he wasn't disguising who God is.
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  • That's what the Greeks would've thought.
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  • That's what the Romans would've thought.
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  • When Zeus and Hermes come down,
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  • they disguise themselves as humble people.
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  • When Jesus came as a little baby,
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  • when he became a carpenter, when he died on the cross,
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  • he wasn't disguising who God is,
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  • he was revealing who God is.
  • 00:11:41.290 --> 00:11:43.150
  • - [John Dickson] The historical moment
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  • that changed everything was not so much
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  • his teaching, but his crucifixion.
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  • Because in the crucifixion,
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  • power is given up in such as extraordinary way.
  • 00:11:58.160 --> 00:12:02.130
  • The cross was viewed,
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  • crucifixion generally was viewed,
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  • as the ultimate punishment in the Roman Empire.
  • 00:12:06.280 --> 00:12:10.060
  • The lowest point in the world, you could say.
  • 00:12:10.060 --> 00:12:13.050
  • And yet the Christians believe Jesus
  • 00:12:13.050 --> 00:12:15.030
  • chose to go there, not that he was humbled,
  • 00:12:15.030 --> 00:12:18.190
  • not that he was crushed,
  • 00:12:18.190 --> 00:12:20.240
  • but that he'd willingly given himself.
  • 00:12:20.240 --> 00:12:23.000
  • And so they had a choice.
  • 00:12:23.000 --> 00:12:25.010
  • Does this mean Jesus wasn't as great as we thought,
  • 00:12:25.010 --> 00:12:27.160
  • because there he is on a cross,
  • 00:12:27.160 --> 00:12:29.010
  • or does it mean we have to change
  • 00:12:29.010 --> 00:12:30.230
  • what we think about greatness?
  • 00:12:30.230 --> 00:12:32.110
  • It really does seem that the turning point,
  • 00:12:32.110 --> 00:12:33.270
  • and when I say this I just mean it
  • 00:12:33.270 --> 00:12:35.040
  • historically, not theologically,
  • 00:12:35.040 --> 00:12:36.260
  • the turning point in history,
  • 00:12:36.260 --> 00:12:38.220
  • in terms of this motif of the humble leader,
  • 00:12:38.220 --> 00:12:41.060
  • is the crucifixion of Jesus,
  • 00:12:41.060 --> 00:12:43.010
  • where the Christians spotted
  • 00:12:43.010 --> 00:12:44.260
  • that to be truly great means to
  • 00:12:44.260 --> 00:12:47.000
  • lower yourself for the sake of another.
  • 00:12:47.000 --> 00:12:50.040
  • It isn't to deny your own status.
  • 00:12:50.040 --> 00:12:52.090
  • Jesus, of course, knew he had quite a heavy, large status,
  • 00:12:52.090 --> 00:12:56.250
  • but he choice to orient it toward the good of others.
  • 00:12:56.250 --> 00:13:00.030
  • And we can date this pretty precisely,
  • 00:13:00.030 --> 00:13:02.010
  • because you suddenly get,
  • 00:13:02.010 --> 00:13:04.210
  • in the middle of the First Century,
  • 00:13:04.210 --> 00:13:06.110
  • shortly after Jesus' crucifixion,
  • 00:13:06.110 --> 00:13:08.180
  • you get texts that use the word humility,
  • 00:13:08.180 --> 00:13:12.070
  • which had meant to be crushed or to be humbled by another,
  • 00:13:12.070 --> 00:13:15.050
  • you start to see it used as a virtue, a positive virtue.
  • 00:13:15.050 --> 00:13:18.170
  • To humble yourself for the sake
  • 00:13:18.170 --> 00:13:20.050
  • of another just as Jesus did.
  • 00:13:20.050 --> 00:13:21.190
  • Jesus constantly talked about
  • 00:13:22.250 --> 00:13:24.270
  • was what it was to lead,
  • 00:13:24.270 --> 00:13:26.250
  • and what he was trying to do was
  • 00:13:26.250 --> 00:13:28.180
  • reset his followers' attitudes on leadership.
  • 00:13:28.180 --> 00:13:30.280
  • He talked about it all the time,
  • 00:13:30.280 --> 00:13:32.230
  • but he gave one object lesson that was really important.
  • 00:13:32.230 --> 00:13:35.190
  • There was a Passover meal,
  • 00:13:35.190 --> 00:13:36.250
  • it's a special Jewish celebration.
  • 00:13:36.250 --> 00:13:38.220
  • They had everything they needed, all the food, et cetera,
  • 00:13:38.220 --> 00:13:41.220
  • but they'd forgotten to get someone
  • 00:13:41.220 --> 00:13:43.030
  • there to wash people's feet.
  • 00:13:43.030 --> 00:13:45.010
  • Now, in a place where men worse sandals,
  • 00:13:45.010 --> 00:13:47.200
  • it was hot and dusty and you reclined at a table,
  • 00:13:47.200 --> 00:13:50.200
  • washing people's feet was really important
  • 00:13:50.200 --> 00:13:53.160
  • to make the meal bearable.
  • 00:13:53.160 --> 00:13:55.100
  • So when there was no one to wash people's feet,
  • 00:13:56.150 --> 00:13:58.280
  • Jesus grabbed the towel and put it around himself,
  • 00:13:58.280 --> 00:14:00.250
  • got a bowl of water, and washed
  • 00:14:00.250 --> 00:14:02.290
  • his disciples' feet, his followers' feet.
  • 00:14:02.290 --> 00:14:05.100
  • And then he said,
  • 00:14:05.100 --> 00:14:06.180
  • if I as your leader are to wash your feet,
  • 00:14:06.180 --> 00:14:08.280
  • you're to wash other people's feet.
  • 00:14:08.280 --> 00:14:10.240
  • In other words, if you're gonna lead,
  • 00:14:10.240 --> 00:14:13.180
  • be humble in leadership.
  • 00:14:13.180 --> 00:14:15.080
  • - [Rico Tice] Well I think what Jesus does
  • 00:14:21.260 --> 00:14:23.220
  • is he washes his disciples' feet.
  • 00:14:23.220 --> 00:14:25.210
  • I was at one of these English boarding schools
  • 00:14:27.260 --> 00:14:30.000
  • where I went when I was eight years old.
  • 00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:31.270
  • I'm fine now, I've just about recovered from the experience.
  • 00:14:31.270 --> 00:14:35.090
  • My parents lived abroad and I got sent to this school.
  • 00:14:35.090 --> 00:14:36.230
  • And you know, these schools are not about producing service.
  • 00:14:36.230 --> 00:14:41.080
  • They're not about producing servants,
  • 00:14:41.080 --> 00:14:42.180
  • they're about conditionally loving you.
  • 00:14:42.180 --> 00:14:44.280
  • So we'll love you if you succeed,
  • 00:14:44.280 --> 00:14:47.190
  • and therefore, rather like the ancient Roman world,
  • 00:14:47.190 --> 00:14:50.030
  • you favor those above you who can pull you up
  • 00:14:50.030 --> 00:14:52.100
  • but you push down on those below you.
  • 00:14:52.100 --> 00:14:54.120
  • And suddenly I've become a Christian,
  • 00:14:54.120 --> 00:14:55.100
  • I realize I've gotta serve
  • 00:14:55.100 --> 00:14:56.270
  • the younger boys in the boarding house.
  • 00:14:56.270 --> 00:14:58.050
  • Suddenly I've become a Christian
  • 00:14:58.050 --> 00:14:59.200
  • and I spend my gap year in the University of Liverpool.
  • 00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:01.260
  • I don't do a gap year around the world.
  • 00:15:01.260 --> 00:15:03.130
  • I didn't go to Australia, which would have perhaps
  • 00:15:03.130 --> 00:15:05.110
  • been what my brother did actually,
  • 00:15:05.110 --> 00:15:07.020
  • went to Australia and New Zealand.
  • 00:15:07.020 --> 00:15:08.250
  • No, I go to the University of Liverpool.
  • 00:15:08.250 --> 00:15:10.140
  • I'm not trying to be pompous,
  • 00:15:10.140 --> 00:15:11.250
  • but Jesus says you serve, so I become
  • 00:15:11.250 --> 00:15:13.100
  • a youth worker in Liverpool, in an urban priority area,
  • 00:15:13.100 --> 00:15:15.190
  • because that's what Christian faith says.
  • 00:15:15.190 --> 00:15:18.110
  • The Bishop of Liverpool, David Shepard,
  • 00:15:18.110 --> 00:15:20.060
  • who was an alumni of my school, came along.
  • 00:15:20.060 --> 00:15:22.060
  • He said if you're Christian
  • 00:15:22.060 --> 00:15:23.290
  • you'll come and spend your gap year in Liverpool,
  • 00:15:23.290 --> 00:15:24.270
  • because you should be serving.
  • 00:15:24.270 --> 00:15:26.140
  • Well that was, I mean my family thought
  • 00:15:26.140 --> 00:15:28.180
  • what's he doing, this boy?
  • 00:15:28.180 --> 00:15:29.260
  • Well it's because I had come to faith.
  • 00:15:29.260 --> 00:15:31.260
  • I was speaking to someone the other day
  • 00:15:31.260 --> 00:15:34.030
  • and they'd been working out in
  • 00:15:34.030 --> 00:15:36.270
  • the most difficult areas in the world,
  • 00:15:36.270 --> 00:15:38.280
  • and she said, this girl, Edwina Thompson,
  • 00:15:38.280 --> 00:15:42.160
  • she said, why is it wherever I go,
  • 00:15:42.160 --> 00:15:44.200
  • the most difficult places I go, I find Catholic nuns?
  • 00:15:44.200 --> 00:15:48.000
  • You know, these women who've given their lives
  • 00:15:49.050 --> 00:15:51.030
  • to serving in the most difficult places.
  • 00:15:51.030 --> 00:15:53.290
  • And it's because the call of Christ is to serve,
  • 00:15:53.290 --> 00:15:56.140
  • to serve those who have nothing.
  • 00:15:56.140 --> 00:15:58.280
  • Now, the Church may not be doing that,
  • 00:15:58.280 --> 00:16:00.210
  • but that doesn't mean they're following their master.
  • 00:16:00.210 --> 00:16:02.290
  • If we're following him that's what we should be doing.
  • 00:16:02.290 --> 00:16:05.140
  • - [I'Ching Thomas] It's fascinating when you look
  • 00:16:15.060 --> 00:16:16.230
  • at the modern missionary movement.
  • 00:16:16.230 --> 00:16:18.270
  • It was really born out of a particular man
  • 00:16:18.270 --> 00:16:22.220
  • who believed that this is what
  • 00:16:22.220 --> 00:16:24.150
  • he ought to be doing, Hudson Taylor.
  • 00:16:24.150 --> 00:16:28.120
  • A lot of people have known what he's done in China,
  • 00:16:28.120 --> 00:16:31.000
  • but it's fascinating when you see how
  • 00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:33.090
  • he basically went to China, lived among the Chinese.
  • 00:16:33.090 --> 00:16:36.280
  • It's just so reminiscent of what Jesus did.
  • 00:16:36.280 --> 00:16:40.200
  • He went there and, unlike the missionaries of the past,
  • 00:16:40.200 --> 00:16:43.250
  • he dressed like a Chinese.
  • 00:16:43.250 --> 00:16:45.200
  • Of course he learned the language.
  • 00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:47.200
  • And he lived among them, like them.
  • 00:16:47.200 --> 00:16:49.290
  • And he learned the culture.
  • 00:16:49.290 --> 00:16:52.220
  • He was culturally very Chinese.
  • 00:16:52.220 --> 00:16:55.060
  • So I think, just, the humility, you know,
  • 00:16:55.060 --> 00:16:58.040
  • that Hudson Taylor manifested or expressed,
  • 00:16:58.040 --> 00:17:03.060
  • I think it is a very clear example
  • 00:17:04.110 --> 00:17:05.120
  • of what Jesus was talking about.
  • 00:17:05.120 --> 00:17:07.100
  • And clearly Hudson Taylor saw Christ
  • 00:17:07.100 --> 00:17:10.050
  • as the model and set the example
  • 00:17:10.050 --> 00:17:12.190
  • of how he ought to have lived his life.
  • 00:17:12.190 --> 00:17:14.190
  • And it's fascinating if you think about
  • 00:17:14.190 --> 00:17:16.070
  • how just the results, even up to today,
  • 00:17:16.070 --> 00:17:19.230
  • of that act of Hudson Taylor,
  • 00:17:19.230 --> 00:17:22.070
  • and the number of people who have
  • 00:17:22.070 --> 00:17:24.230
  • come to know Jesus because of what he did
  • 00:17:24.230 --> 00:17:27.110
  • and how he's lived his life.
  • 00:17:27.110 --> 00:17:29.010
  • - The problem is you become a Christian
  • 00:17:29.010 --> 00:17:30.190
  • and those same self-centered desires are in place.
  • 00:17:30.190 --> 00:17:35.120
  • Although fortunately I've got such a stupid name,
  • 00:17:35.120 --> 00:17:37.220
  • Rico Tice, it's not a great name to try and make it.
  • 00:17:37.220 --> 00:17:39.270
  • A lot of people think I'm called Tico Rice,
  • 00:17:39.270 --> 00:17:41.150
  • which sounds like number 42 at the takeaway.
  • 00:17:41.150 --> 00:17:43.200
  • But I think there's that sense of desiring self-honor,
  • 00:17:43.200 --> 00:17:47.220
  • and actually, what the spirit of Christ does
  • 00:17:47.220 --> 00:17:50.160
  • is it means you become a servant.
  • 00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:51.290
  • So it's that sense that success in life is in serving.
  • 00:17:51.290 --> 00:17:56.260
  • And I think that was the great challenge.
  • 00:17:56.260 --> 00:18:00.270
  • But then what happens is you find that
  • 00:18:00.270 --> 00:18:02.210
  • the way God's made the universe is counterintuitive.
  • 00:18:02.210 --> 00:18:05.220
  • So as you give your life away in service, you find it.
  • 00:18:05.220 --> 00:18:08.250
  • That's what's extraordinary.
  • 00:18:08.250 --> 00:18:09.250
  • Because you're aligning yourself
  • 00:18:09.250 --> 00:18:11.060
  • with the laws of the universe.
  • 00:18:11.060 --> 00:18:12.240
  • The cross is at the center of the universe.
  • 00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:15.000
  • You give yourself in service, suddenly you find joy.
  • 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:18.010
  • If you're utterly self-centered,
  • 00:18:18.010 --> 00:18:20.090
  • there's a profound emptiness.
  • 00:18:20.090 --> 00:18:21.230
  • - [John Anderson] It's interesting, really,
  • 00:18:26.280 --> 00:18:28.280
  • that we live in a culture where,
  • 00:18:28.280 --> 00:18:29.290
  • from a very early age on,
  • 00:18:29.290 --> 00:18:31.040
  • our children are encouraged to believe
  • 00:18:31.040 --> 00:18:32.100
  • they can have it all because it's about them.
  • 00:18:32.100 --> 00:18:34.010
  • You see it in the advertising industry.
  • 00:18:34.010 --> 00:18:35.120
  • Buy this product, you deserve it.
  • 00:18:35.120 --> 00:18:37.110
  • Look after the most important person in the world, you.
  • 00:18:37.110 --> 00:18:40.020
  • You know the amazing thing about that
  • 00:18:40.020 --> 00:18:41.140
  • is that when voters see politicians behaving like that,
  • 00:18:41.140 --> 00:18:44.160
  • in other words, living out the very value system
  • 00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:47.020
  • that we tend to promote to our children
  • 00:18:47.020 --> 00:18:49.240
  • as being the right one, they're repulsed by it.
  • 00:18:49.240 --> 00:18:52.250
  • They actually understand at that point,
  • 00:18:52.250 --> 00:18:54.090
  • now wait a minute, we actually think
  • 00:18:54.090 --> 00:18:55.250
  • leadership should be about service.
  • 00:18:55.250 --> 00:18:57.160
  • - [John Dickson] The very curious thing today
  • 00:19:00.280 --> 00:19:02.170
  • is that you don't need to be the least bit Christian
  • 00:19:02.170 --> 00:19:05.110
  • to think humility is wonderful.
  • 00:19:05.110 --> 00:19:07.100
  • That's just the influence of Christianity.
  • 00:19:07.100 --> 00:19:08.260
  • It's now, you don't even have to believe the Jesus story.
  • 00:19:08.260 --> 00:19:11.160
  • If you're born in the Western culture,
  • 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:13.060
  • you grow up with this kind of background idea
  • 00:19:13.060 --> 00:19:16.080
  • that the truly great serve.
  • 00:19:16.080 --> 00:19:19.080
  • And so, you find it amongst all sorts of people.
  • 00:19:19.080 --> 00:19:22.080
  • Business leaders are now discovering
  • 00:19:24.060 --> 00:19:27.090
  • that humility is one of the most
  • 00:19:27.090 --> 00:19:29.270
  • central virtues of good leadership.
  • 00:19:29.270 --> 00:19:33.150
  • And so there's very famous studies
  • 00:19:33.150 --> 00:19:34.260
  • put out by Jim Collins and others
  • 00:19:34.260 --> 00:19:36.230
  • finding that the best leaders are the humble leaders.
  • 00:19:36.230 --> 00:19:40.060
  • When we bump into a great person
  • 00:19:40.060 --> 00:19:42.000
  • who only wants to talk about themselves,
  • 00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:44.050
  • we are all repelled, right?
  • 00:19:44.050 --> 00:19:46.210
  • Unconscious that that's really the influence
  • 00:19:46.210 --> 00:19:49.170
  • of the Jesus story on our culture.
  • 00:19:49.170 --> 00:19:53.000
  • Whereas, in antiquity, of course the great
  • 00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:55.100
  • would talk about themselves.
  • 00:19:55.100 --> 00:19:57.000
  • In fact, you were obliged
  • 00:19:57.000 --> 00:19:58.050
  • to talk about how great they were as well.
  • 00:19:58.050 --> 00:20:00.030
  • 'Cause that's what the natural order demanded.
  • 00:20:00.030 --> 00:20:02.060
  • We've just come to despise the honor seekers
  • 00:20:02.060 --> 00:20:05.140
  • and prize humility in a way that is,
  • 00:20:05.140 --> 00:20:09.090
  • that would've been bizarre to a Greek and Roman,
  • 00:20:09.090 --> 00:20:12.150
  • but is just the air we breathe today.
  • 00:20:12.150 --> 00:20:14.160
  • How would you describe, explain humility?
  • 00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:18.240
  • 'Cause it's kind of tough to describe.
  • 00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:21.000
  • - It's a deliberate lowering
  • 00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:22.180
  • of yourself for another person.
  • 00:20:22.180 --> 00:20:24.180
  • So one way to think about it
  • 00:20:24.180 --> 00:20:26.180
  • is to hold whatever power you've got,
  • 00:20:26.180 --> 00:20:29.000
  • whether that's beauty or intelligence or money
  • 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:33.130
  • or physical prowess, to hold it for the good of others.
  • 00:20:33.130 --> 00:20:38.130
  • So it's not really having a low view of yourself.
  • 00:20:39.260 --> 00:20:41.040
  • After all, if you think about Jesus,
  • 00:20:41.040 --> 00:20:43.110
  • he didn't have a low view of himself.
  • 00:20:43.110 --> 00:20:45.290
  • But he knew that his power was most beautifully
  • 00:20:45.290 --> 00:20:50.290
  • expressed in using that for the sake of others.
  • 00:20:52.050 --> 00:20:54.190
  • So humility needs to be distinguished
  • 00:20:54.190 --> 00:20:57.200
  • from just feeling bad about yourself.
  • 00:20:57.200 --> 00:20:59.190
  • Someone with low self-esteem isn't necessarily humble.
  • 00:20:59.190 --> 00:21:02.130
  • Of course, they can be humble.
  • 00:21:02.130 --> 00:21:03.220
  • But one could even make the argument
  • 00:21:03.220 --> 00:21:05.100
  • that you need a pretty good self-esteem
  • 00:21:05.100 --> 00:21:07.180
  • to be genuinely humble.
  • 00:21:07.180 --> 00:21:09.110
  • Because it's only when you really know what gifts you have
  • 00:21:09.110 --> 00:21:11.220
  • that you can go, you know what,
  • 00:21:11.220 --> 00:21:13.260
  • they're not for me, they're for others.
  • 00:21:13.260 --> 00:21:16.190
  • And as soon as you make that noble choice
  • 00:21:16.190 --> 00:21:19.220
  • to use your power for others,
  • 00:21:19.220 --> 00:21:21.050
  • you're doing what the New Testament
  • 00:21:21.050 --> 00:21:22.230
  • and the early Christian writings call humility,
  • 00:21:22.230 --> 00:21:25.200
  • based on what Jesus did in being
  • 00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:27.220
  • one of immense power willingly going to a cross.
  • 00:21:27.220 --> 00:21:31.150
  • - You were at the kind of peak of Australian politics,
  • 00:21:41.060 --> 00:21:45.000
  • which has a lot of power and a lot of prestige.
  • 00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:47.000
  • How did you stay grounded?
  • 00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:48.270
  • - Well it's kind of you to assume that I didn't.
  • 00:21:48.270 --> 00:21:51.080
  • I think philosophically I had a deep commitment
  • 00:21:51.080 --> 00:21:53.270
  • to the view that I have no special standing before God
  • 00:21:53.270 --> 00:21:57.260
  • that other human beings don't have.
  • 00:21:57.260 --> 00:21:59.240
  • In one sense, you see,
  • 00:22:02.090 --> 00:22:04.060
  • if I'm fortunate enough to have some talents
  • 00:22:04.060 --> 00:22:05.270
  • or gifts or whatever equipped me for that role,
  • 00:22:05.270 --> 00:22:09.060
  • that's not to my credit.
  • 00:22:09.060 --> 00:22:11.080
  • It's to be used wisely for others.
  • 00:22:12.130 --> 00:22:14.150
  • If there are others who don't have those abilities,
  • 00:22:14.150 --> 00:22:16.110
  • I have no grounds for despising them
  • 00:22:16.110 --> 00:22:18.150
  • or condemning them or for looking down on them.
  • 00:22:18.150 --> 00:22:20.280
  • But there are a lot of practical lessons
  • 00:22:20.280 --> 00:22:22.160
  • that you learn as well going through life.
  • 00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:25.030
  • - John, give me a bit of a picture
  • 00:22:25.030 --> 00:22:26.180
  • about what you think is good political leadership.
  • 00:22:26.180 --> 00:22:29.090
  • You just talked about service and serving,
  • 00:22:29.090 --> 00:22:31.170
  • and you've worked with numbers of different leaders.
  • 00:22:31.170 --> 00:22:34.130
  • What did you see that was important in leadership?
  • 00:22:34.130 --> 00:22:37.160
  • - Well, you know, leadership really,
  • 00:22:37.160 --> 00:22:40.090
  • I suppose, involves having a vision,
  • 00:22:40.090 --> 00:22:42.110
  • where you want to go,
  • 00:22:42.110 --> 00:22:43.170
  • where you think things need to be taken,
  • 00:22:43.170 --> 00:22:45.120
  • being able to articulate it to others
  • 00:22:45.120 --> 00:22:47.120
  • so that they understand what the vision is,
  • 00:22:47.120 --> 00:22:50.010
  • and then having about you, one way or another,
  • 00:22:50.010 --> 00:22:51.240
  • the qualities that will get others
  • 00:22:51.240 --> 00:22:56.170
  • to work with you to achieve that vision.
  • 00:22:56.170 --> 00:22:59.090
  • But that vision might be for good or for ill.
  • 00:22:59.090 --> 00:23:02.120
  • That's the problem.
  • 00:23:02.120 --> 00:23:03.280
  • And we can think of an Adolf Hitler.
  • 00:23:03.280 --> 00:23:05.200
  • He had a horrific vision.
  • 00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:07.060
  • He was certainly able to articulate enough of it
  • 00:23:07.060 --> 00:23:09.130
  • to be able to take people with him
  • 00:23:09.130 --> 00:23:11.230
  • so that they were prepared to
  • 00:23:11.230 --> 00:23:13.170
  • try and make that vision a reality.
  • 00:23:13.170 --> 00:23:16.210
  • And so, you know, the antithesis of that, of course,
  • 00:23:16.210 --> 00:23:20.050
  • is a traditional Christian model of leadership,
  • 00:23:20.050 --> 00:23:22.160
  • where the founder of Christianity
  • 00:23:23.210 --> 00:23:26.090
  • was prepared to lay down his life for others
  • 00:23:26.090 --> 00:23:29.040
  • even if they weren't his friends.
  • 00:23:29.040 --> 00:23:30.230
  • - For you, how is Jesus the game changer?
  • 00:23:33.130 --> 00:23:35.200
  • - The most game-changing thing in the whole Jesus narrative
  • 00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:40.200
  • is the thought that God Almighty,
  • 00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:45.180
  • according to the New Testament,
  • 00:23:45.180 --> 00:23:47.150
  • suffered the betrayal of friends,
  • 00:23:49.030 --> 00:23:52.250
  • public injustice, brutal torture,
  • 00:23:54.000 --> 00:23:58.160
  • and a final breath.
  • 00:23:58.160 --> 00:24:00.180
  • If that's true, if that's God going through that,
  • 00:24:02.010 --> 00:24:06.150
  • this does change everything.
  • 00:24:06.150 --> 00:24:08.150
  • Because it means,
  • 00:24:08.150 --> 00:24:10.210
  • despite the things in the world I don't get,
  • 00:24:10.210 --> 00:24:13.080
  • the pain and the evil that I just don't get,
  • 00:24:13.080 --> 00:24:16.070
  • I can't say God doesn't know what that's like.
  • 00:24:16.070 --> 00:24:21.050
  • I can't say God can't be trusted.
  • 00:24:22.100 --> 00:24:24.130
  • 'Cause there's this moment that changes forever
  • 00:24:24.130 --> 00:24:28.040
  • my picture of God.
  • 00:24:28.040 --> 00:24:29.250
  • He can't be the remote, aloof, power-hungry puppeteer.
  • 00:24:29.250 --> 00:24:34.010
  • He is the one who would rather give himself,
  • 00:24:34.010 --> 00:24:36.100
  • through violence and injustice
  • 00:24:36.100 --> 00:24:39.090
  • and the betrayal of those closest to him,
  • 00:24:39.090 --> 00:24:44.090
  • he would rather go through that for me
  • 00:24:45.140 --> 00:24:47.250
  • than to see me lost from him forever.
  • 00:24:47.250 --> 00:24:52.180
  • I think that changes everything.
  • 00:24:52.180 --> 00:24:55.160