Episode 4 | Forgiveness | TBN

Episode 4 | Forgiveness

Watch Episode 4 | Forgiveness
September 25, 2018
26:35

Jesus the Game Changer

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Episode 4 | Forgiveness

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  • the unconditional love of God.
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  • He was God's face turned toward us in radical embrace.
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  • I think that changes just about everything.
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  • (upbeat music)
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  • - Look, I think in terms of interpersonal relations,
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  • the absolute heart of what you're trying to work out
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  • with anybody is how do you do forgiveness.
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  • Now the mechanism of reconciliation
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  • for Christians is the cross.
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  • Because Jesus has forgiven me so much,
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  • I'm looking to forgive others.
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  • And so, Colossians 3:13, one of Paul's letters says,
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  • bear with one another,
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  • forgive whatever grievances you have against each other.
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  • Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
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  • Now, a grievance is a big thing!
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  • And yet how do you forgive?
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  • Well, as the Lord forgive you, forgave you.
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  • So you receive this forgiveness from God,
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  • and that enables you to forgive others.
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  • (contemplative music)
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  • - Well, what did Jesus have to say about forgiveness?
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  • - Well, people often ask me what do I think
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  • is the most radical thing that Jesus taught.
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  • And I would argue that one of the candidates for that
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  • would certainly be his teaching on forgiveness.
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  • You see, it was completely counter cultural.
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  • In Greek and Roman thought,
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  • forgiveness was a very odd notion.
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  • In Hebrew thinking even, forgiveness had a very fixed place.
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  • And what Jesus did was came in
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  • and blew that apart completely.
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  • So in Hebrew thinking, if you wanted a sin to be forgiven,
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  • you took your sacrifice to the temple
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  • and God would forgive that sin.
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  • What you've got to bear in mind that within that
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  • Hebrew sacrificial system it was only,
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  • forgiveness was only available
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  • for sins you'd done by accident, inadvertent sins.
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  • There was no forgiveness for deliberate sins.
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  • And that begins to give you a sense
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  • of actually what Jesus is coming in and doing.
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  • So firstly he comes and says
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  • forgiveness doesn't have to happen in the temple.
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  • Then he says, forgiveness doesn't have to happen
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  • just given by God.
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  • Then he says any kind of sin can be forgiven.
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  • Then he says, now you go and do it.
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  • - [Interviewer] Wow.
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  • - And when you kind of go out like that,
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  • you realize that he's jus blown all expectations
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  • about forgiveness and sin
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  • and what that means apart entirely,
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  • and I think that's really inspirational.
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  • - Did Jesus say things about forgiveness
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  • that were different from other leaders,
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  • either then or now?
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  • - Yeah I mean, if you look at just the time period
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  • that he lived in, forgiveness was always conditional.
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  • Even amongst, and especially amongst
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  • the religious leaders of the day.
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  • It was an exacting, demanding, conditional forgiveness.
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  • I will forgive you, if you have suffered enough.
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  • I will forgive you if you pay back enough.
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  • I will forgive you, if unto the exacting of the law
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  • or the society of the day or religious ceremony
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  • you have fulfilled all of the ticks
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  • to show that you will pay back what you owe me.
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  • And Jesus brought a complete new way going,
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  • forgive your brother 70 times 7, keep doing it.
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  • That shocked everybody.
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  • - In Jesus, God forgave without people
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  • first asking for repentance.
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  • Just like Jesus on the cross forgave
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  • without people asking for repentance.
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  • So also I think that there is a place in Christian faith
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  • which says you forgive irrespective of what the other does.
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  • If the other repents, great,
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  • that's what the other person ought to,
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  • that's their responsibility.
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  • But your responsibility, my responsibility is
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  • to forgive irrespective of what the other person does.
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  • - In April 2015, Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran
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  • died at the hands of an Indonesian firing squad.
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  • A priest that was present said
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  • that they died with their voices strong
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  • and their eyes open.
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  • They were singing hymns, praises to God.
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  • Now, most Australians,
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  • and perhaps people around the world
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  • know why they were there.
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  • They were trying to smuggle heroin into Australia
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  • and had been caught.
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  • And people understand that there need to be punishment,
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  • but the response of the impending death
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  • was remarkable in Australia.
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  • Hundreds of thousands of people used the hashtag
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  • I stand for mercy.
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  • There were candlelight vigils all over the nation.
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  • You see, people saw them not just as criminals
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  • but as people who had reformed themselves.
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  • Chan was a pastor,
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  • Sukumaran was running an art school in the prison.
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  • And they felt that it was unfair
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  • that these two young men who had reformed themselves
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  • should lose their lives.
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  • There's a whole bunch of reasons why
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  • that would be the case,
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  • but one is the heritage of our nation.
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  • We're built on a heritage of the story of Jesus.
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  • The message of Easter.
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  • Forgiveness, a fresh start,
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  • the opportunity for redemption.
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  • Part of Australian's response is that they recognize
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  • that forgiveness and the opportunity
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  • to receive and experience forgiveness
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  • ought to be there for all people.
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  • (contemplative music)
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  • What was life like as a young boy for you?
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  • - Well growing up I would have to say overall
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  • life was pretty good.
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  • I had some bumps in the road.
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  • My mother and father separated, which was pretty difficult.
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  • But I think the real hurdle
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  • came into our lives when my mother was in a relationship
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  • with someone else and he was verbally abusive
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  • when he was under the influence of alcohol,
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  • and physically abusive to her.
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  • And those were the moments that I remember hating someone.
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  • I don't remember hating anybody prior to him.
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  • And he was, he was just very,
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  • the abuse was very traumatizing.
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  • Because one minute he could be very nice
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  • and take you to the Yankees game,
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  • and then the next minute he's yelling
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  • and he's threatening you.
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  • - So Hashim was church, or going to church
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  • part of your life then?
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  • - No, not at all.
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  • I went to church on Easter,
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  • but that was the most of it, most of it, yeah.
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  • - Gangs, is that what you got into as a young man?
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  • - I did, as a child.
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  • I joined a gang when I was in the sixth grade
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  • and I did it for a few reasons.
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  • One, I wanted to fit in.
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  • It seemed like those were the popular kids.
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  • Two, for protection.
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  • The same kids that were picking on me
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  • I figured out if I befriend them
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  • maybe they'll leave me alone.
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  • So in my 12 and 11 year old mind I said
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  • I'll hang out with the bully and he won't pick on me.
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  • And it worked for awhile, and we bullied other kids,
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  • but when there was no one else to bully,
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  • they returned to bullying me.
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  • So, it didn't really work out that well.
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  • - So, Hashim, when you were 15,
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  • streets of Brooklyn, your life changed radically.
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  • Tell me what happened in that incident.
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  • - Well it was, it seemed like a normal day.
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  • It was May 7th, 1990.
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  • I was standing on a corner with some so-called friends,
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  • kids my mom always told me not to hang out with.
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  • And while I'm standing on this corner,
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  • a kid walked past me, and said nothing to me,
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  • didn't give me an odd look
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  • like he was going to do something.
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  • And he walks past me and all of a sudden
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  • one of my so-called friends who was standing next to me
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  • says look out, run.
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  • And as soon as I took off and I started running,
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  • my first instinct was to look to see
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  • what am I running from, but I'm not going to stop.
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  • And I keep running, I look over my shoulder,
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  • and when I turn, I noticed this kid who walked past me
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  • is standing behind me with a sub-machine gun.
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  • - [Interviewer] Wow.
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  • - And I kept running and I remember as I was running
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  • looking down at my pants leg and noticing
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  • that there was a weird movement.
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  • And I remember thinking to myself
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  • why are my pants moving like this.
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  • As soon as I thought that,
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  • something hard struck me in my back.
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  • I was paralyzed instantly.
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  • That hard feeling I felt in my back
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  • was a bullet striking me in my spine.
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  • And as soon I hit the ground
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  • I remember calling to my friends going,
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  • yo I got shot, I got shot.
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  • And one or two came back and they couldn't help me,
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  • and as soon as they left me I was on that ground
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  • and I was scared.
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  • And I'm wondering, why can't I move my legs,
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  • why can't I feel my legs.
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  • And I remember looking up in the sky going,
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  • God please don't let me die.
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  • And as soon as I said it, I felt a peace come over me.
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  • The moment the words my left my tongue
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  • and I said God please don't let me die,
  • 00:09:06.170 --> 00:09:08.140
  • all of the fear left me.
  • 00:09:08.140 --> 00:09:10.030
  • - At that point, you knew you were paralyzed.
  • 00:09:10.030 --> 00:09:11.290
  • - I knew.
  • 00:09:11.290 --> 00:09:12.270
  • I didn't know I was paralyzed,
  • 00:09:12.270 --> 00:09:14.050
  • I was 15, I had no idea what the diagnosis was,
  • 00:09:14.050 --> 00:09:16.210
  • but I knew something was wrong.
  • 00:09:16.210 --> 00:09:19.000
  • As I laid on the ground the only thing
  • 00:09:19.000 --> 00:09:20.080
  • that I kept thinking about was my mother,
  • 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:21.230
  • while I was laying on that ground dying.
  • 00:09:21.230 --> 00:09:23.220
  • And so as the EMS workers were putting me into the ambulance
  • 00:09:23.220 --> 00:09:26.110
  • I noticed, I was in and out of consciousness,
  • 00:09:26.110 --> 00:09:28.020
  • and I noticed they had to remove my sneakers.
  • 00:09:28.020 --> 00:09:30.100
  • I had brand new white socks on,
  • 00:09:30.100 --> 00:09:32.040
  • and as I looked down and I see these white socks
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  • the first thought that I popped into my mind was
  • 00:09:34.080 --> 00:09:36.110
  • my mother's going to be proud of me
  • 00:09:36.110 --> 00:09:37.130
  • because I've got on clean socks.
  • 00:09:37.130 --> 00:09:39.100
  • My mother was always a stickler,
  • 00:09:39.100 --> 00:09:40.280
  • is wear clean underwear, wear clean socks
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  • because you never know what's going to happen to you.
  • 00:09:42.290 --> 00:09:44.280
  • - As you get into hospital
  • 00:09:44.280 --> 00:09:46.130
  • and you start to realize that this is a serious condition.
  • 00:09:46.130 --> 00:09:50.130
  • When do you know that you're not going to get better?
  • 00:09:50.130 --> 00:09:53.220
  • - I knew it immediately.
  • 00:09:53.220 --> 00:09:54.280
  • I knew it once I came out of the ICU
  • 00:09:54.280 --> 00:09:56.170
  • when I was in my hospital room.
  • 00:09:56.170 --> 00:09:58.090
  • Because I can't describe what it feels like
  • 00:09:58.090 --> 00:10:00.000
  • to not be able to sustain a spinal cord injury.
  • 00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:02.270
  • But I didn't need a medical degree to know that this is bad.
  • 00:10:04.090 --> 00:10:06.270
  • I can't feel anything, I can't move anything.
  • 00:10:06.270 --> 00:10:09.230
  • And so the doctor's came in and told me,
  • 00:10:09.230 --> 00:10:12.080
  • I'm sorry to say but you're going to be paralyzed
  • 00:10:13.190 --> 00:10:15.000
  • for the rest of your life.
  • 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:16.130
  • And those were some of the longest
  • 00:10:16.130 --> 00:10:17.260
  • and darkest days of my life.
  • 00:10:17.260 --> 00:10:20.090
  • 15 years old, and now I'm, I'm so depressed.
  • 00:10:20.090 --> 00:10:25.020
  • All I want to do is cry.
  • 00:10:25.020 --> 00:10:27.020
  • And that's when I begin growing my hair
  • 00:10:27.020 --> 00:10:28.160
  • and I would just twist my hair and I would cry.
  • 00:10:28.160 --> 00:10:30.150
  • And then some days I would think about revenge.
  • 00:10:30.150 --> 00:10:33.030
  • But those were my lowest moments.
  • 00:10:33.030 --> 00:10:35.140
  • (contemplative music)
  • 00:10:35.140 --> 00:10:38.180
  • - The guy who actually was instrumental in my
  • 00:10:45.090 --> 00:10:50.070
  • five year old brother being killed
  • 00:10:51.230 --> 00:10:54.240
  • was a member of Yugoslavian army.
  • 00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:59.160
  • Right, so there were kind of resonances of the same army
  • 00:10:59.160 --> 00:11:02.070
  • which was persecuting my father and now,
  • 00:11:02.070 --> 00:11:04.260
  • basically through negligence but nonetheless
  • 00:11:07.180 --> 00:11:10.180
  • had my younger brother killed.
  • 00:11:10.180 --> 00:11:13.210
  • It's interesting because my mother and father
  • 00:11:13.210 --> 00:11:16.070
  • both independently of each other
  • 00:11:16.070 --> 00:11:18.250
  • when they've heard the news
  • 00:11:18.250 --> 00:11:21.080
  • decided that they will forgive.
  • 00:11:21.080 --> 00:11:24.120
  • And almost like the, an immediate reaction,
  • 00:11:25.260 --> 00:11:29.220
  • the word of God says that we have been
  • 00:11:31.170 --> 00:11:34.150
  • forgiven by God in Christ,
  • 00:11:34.150 --> 00:11:37.040
  • and therefore we ought to forgive.
  • 00:11:37.040 --> 00:11:38.210
  • And it was just about as simple as that for them.
  • 00:11:38.210 --> 00:11:42.290
  • Now, it was as simple as that for them I think to decide,
  • 00:11:42.290 --> 00:11:45.130
  • but my mother in the same breath when she tells that
  • 00:11:45.130 --> 00:11:47.250
  • she says this was the most difficult of all acts
  • 00:11:47.250 --> 00:11:52.220
  • that I had to do.
  • 00:11:54.020 --> 00:11:55.160
  • Because everything in your soul, in your heart,
  • 00:11:55.160 --> 00:11:58.120
  • screams for revenge.
  • 00:11:58.120 --> 00:12:02.290
  • Screams for he's got to pay for what he has done.
  • 00:12:02.290 --> 00:12:06.240
  • And then there's a struggle between
  • 00:12:07.290 --> 00:12:09.250
  • the desire for revenge or at least some form of justice,
  • 00:12:09.250 --> 00:12:14.140
  • and the call to forgiveness.
  • 00:12:14.140 --> 00:12:18.220
  • And it's in that struggle between the two
  • 00:12:18.220 --> 00:12:21.200
  • that really the fruit of actual forgiveness occurs.
  • 00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:25.250
  • It's a tough thing, forgiveness.
  • 00:12:25.250 --> 00:12:27.170
  • - Because you've had it modeled to you,
  • 00:12:27.170 --> 00:12:29.190
  • and been able to deal with that personally as a young man,
  • 00:12:29.190 --> 00:12:33.050
  • has it always been easy?
  • 00:12:33.050 --> 00:12:35.080
  • Does it kind of come and go?
  • 00:12:35.080 --> 00:12:36.200
  • Do you forgive and it's all done?
  • 00:12:36.200 --> 00:12:38.270
  • What does that look like.
  • 00:12:38.270 --> 00:12:40.100
  • - Yeah, I think my experience is very similar
  • 00:12:40.100 --> 00:12:42.150
  • to the experience of my mom.
  • 00:12:42.150 --> 00:12:44.030
  • What she tells about forgiving the soldier
  • 00:12:45.090 --> 00:12:49.100
  • who was the cause of my brother's death,
  • 00:12:49.100 --> 00:12:54.070
  • you decide to forgive and you decide during the day.
  • 00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:02.200
  • And in the middle of the night you wake up
  • 00:13:02.200 --> 00:13:04.010
  • and then you don't forgive anymore.
  • 00:13:04.010 --> 00:13:05.140
  • (laughing)
  • 00:13:05.140 --> 00:13:06.120
  • Then you think what have I done,
  • 00:13:06.120 --> 00:13:07.280
  • why on earth would I want to forgive.
  • 00:13:07.280 --> 00:13:10.100
  • And then you struggle and you forgive a little bit,
  • 00:13:10.100 --> 00:13:14.150
  • and then you take it back.
  • 00:13:14.150 --> 00:13:16.060
  • You forgive a little bit more, it's a struggle.
  • 00:13:16.060 --> 00:13:20.140
  • And it's a struggle over what one knows
  • 00:13:20.140 --> 00:13:25.030
  • one ought to do and is right also to do.
  • 00:13:25.030 --> 00:13:29.180
  • - I was in a very low place and I needed some help.
  • 00:13:32.230 --> 00:13:36.190
  • I realized all the money in the world
  • 00:13:36.190 --> 00:13:39.030
  • wasn't gonna put me back together again.
  • 00:13:39.030 --> 00:13:41.140
  • The pain was internal.
  • 00:13:41.140 --> 00:13:44.020
  • (piano music)
  • 00:13:44.020 --> 00:13:46.170
  • Shortly thereafter, my mom started coming to the hospital
  • 00:13:48.230 --> 00:13:51.020
  • and said, "Hashim, you need to read this book."
  • 00:13:51.020 --> 00:13:53.050
  • And I didn't wanna do it.
  • 00:13:53.050 --> 00:13:54.120
  • And the book was the Bible.
  • 00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:55.200
  • And as I began to read the Bible,
  • 00:13:55.200 --> 00:13:56.280
  • I ran across all these phenomenal stories,
  • 00:13:56.280 --> 00:14:00.040
  • and I said, "Well, God helped those people,
  • 00:14:00.040 --> 00:14:02.090
  • maybe God can help me."
  • 00:14:02.090 --> 00:14:03.260
  • And then, I came across the Gospels.
  • 00:14:03.260 --> 00:14:06.080
  • And I learned about Christ, and I learned about
  • 00:14:06.080 --> 00:14:10.040
  • when someone harms you,
  • 00:14:11.010 --> 00:14:12.080
  • you have to turn the other cheek.
  • 00:14:12.080 --> 00:14:14.180
  • The disciples asked him, "What should you do when
  • 00:14:14.180 --> 00:14:16.210
  • someone hurts you?"
  • 00:14:16.210 --> 00:14:18.030
  • And He said, "You should forgive."
  • 00:14:18.030 --> 00:14:19.030
  • And the disciples must have been
  • 00:14:19.030 --> 00:14:20.150
  • like you and I and they said,
  • 00:14:20.150 --> 00:14:21.280
  • "Well, how many times should we forgive, Christ?"
  • 00:14:21.280 --> 00:14:23.100
  • And He said, "Well, 70 times seven."
  • 00:14:23.100 --> 00:14:24.290
  • And as a 15 year old, I was doing the math.
  • 00:14:24.290 --> 00:14:26.280
  • That's just a lot of forgiveness
  • 00:14:26.280 --> 00:14:29.220
  • And I realized, I felt like Christ
  • 00:14:29.220 --> 00:14:31.260
  • and God were speaking to me.
  • 00:14:31.260 --> 00:14:33.040
  • "Hashim, you have to forgive", you know?
  • 00:14:33.040 --> 00:14:36.040
  • Maybe I wouldn't get a miracle to walk,
  • 00:14:36.040 --> 00:14:38.060
  • but the real miracle was the depression
  • 00:14:38.060 --> 00:14:40.200
  • that people couldn't see.
  • 00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:43.040
  • And, I read about forgiveness and I said,
  • 00:14:43.040 --> 00:14:45.180
  • "You know what? I'm gonna forgive my mom and dad
  • 00:14:45.180 --> 00:14:48.050
  • for separating and abandoning me."
  • 00:14:48.050 --> 00:14:50.040
  • They didn't care about me and I had a grudge against them
  • 00:14:50.040 --> 00:14:53.040
  • I had to forgive my mother's boyfriend.
  • 00:14:53.040 --> 00:14:55.030
  • I realized, "Well, you know, he has his own issues."
  • 00:14:55.030 --> 00:14:58.020
  • And I had to forgive the kid who shot me.
  • 00:14:58.020 --> 00:15:00.170
  • But then the hard part was forgiving myself.
  • 00:15:00.170 --> 00:15:03.090
  • Because I could blame my mother and father
  • 00:15:03.090 --> 00:15:05.280
  • until the end of time.
  • 00:15:05.280 --> 00:15:07.070
  • I could blame the kid who shot me
  • 00:15:07.070 --> 00:15:08.150
  • but at some point, I had to take ownership
  • 00:15:08.150 --> 00:15:11.210
  • "Hashim, you make those bad decisions."
  • 00:15:11.210 --> 00:15:14.050
  • And that was the hard part.
  • 00:15:14.050 --> 00:15:16.150
  • - [Interviewer] One of the hardest people to forgive
  • 00:15:16.150 --> 00:15:17.220
  • is yourself, though isn't it?.
  • 00:15:17.220 --> 00:15:19.060
  • In that whole process,
  • 00:15:19.060 --> 00:15:20.120
  • because that's still forgiveness.
  • 00:15:20.120 --> 00:15:22.290
  • - I know sometimes it's tougher to do it,
  • 00:15:22.290 --> 00:15:25.180
  • to forgive yourself.
  • 00:15:25.180 --> 00:15:27.080
  • I'm not sure we are often, that we know
  • 00:15:28.140 --> 00:15:30.140
  • what we need to forgive ourselves.
  • 00:15:30.140 --> 00:15:33.180
  • I think we are
  • 00:15:33.180 --> 00:15:35.120
  • opaque to ourselves, often.
  • 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:37.190
  • And I think for me, the central verse
  • 00:15:39.290 --> 00:15:43.230
  • was the one from 1 John.
  • 00:15:43.230 --> 00:15:45.230
  • That God is greater
  • 00:15:46.210 --> 00:15:48.080
  • than our hearts.
  • 00:15:49.110 --> 00:15:50.210
  • And I think in a very significant senses
  • 00:15:52.030 --> 00:15:54.230
  • this has to be taken greater in the sense
  • 00:15:54.230 --> 00:15:57.030
  • that God is more generous,
  • 00:15:57.030 --> 00:15:58.100
  • sometimes to ourselves than we are.
  • 00:15:58.100 --> 00:16:00.110
  • But greater in the sense that our hearts
  • 00:16:00.110 --> 00:16:03.180
  • are not just deceitful, but we don't know what's in there.
  • 00:16:03.180 --> 00:16:08.120
  • - (Interviewer) Did you feel a sense of relief
  • 00:16:10.050 --> 00:16:11.280
  • when that happened?
  • 00:16:11.280 --> 00:16:13.070
  • When you were able to forgive and let it go?
  • 00:16:13.070 --> 00:16:14.150
  • - I did. I did. Truly, it was like a weight
  • 00:16:14.150 --> 00:16:16.090
  • was lifted off of me.
  • 00:16:16.090 --> 00:16:17.190
  • - Was it a smooth kind of journey?
  • 00:16:17.190 --> 00:16:19.160
  • Did you kinda just forgive and drop and that was it?
  • 00:16:19.160 --> 00:16:21.150
  • Or, was it a kind of, "No, I should be angry"
  • 00:16:21.150 --> 00:16:23.080
  • "No I should forgive." How did that work?
  • 00:16:23.080 --> 00:16:26.100
  • - There's a famous quote that I've
  • 00:16:26.100 --> 00:16:27.280
  • heard Dr. Martin Luther King say,
  • 00:16:27.280 --> 00:16:30.230
  • "Forgiveness is not an occasional act,
  • 00:16:30.230 --> 00:16:32.240
  • but it's a permanent attitude."
  • 00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:34.180
  • So, no, it wasn't something that I did just one time
  • 00:16:34.180 --> 00:16:37.060
  • and I didn't have to do it again
  • 00:16:37.060 --> 00:16:39.250
  • I have to constantly forgive.
  • 00:16:39.250 --> 00:16:41.230
  • But it's in those moments, now I'm a father.
  • 00:16:41.230 --> 00:16:44.280
  • Two little children, and so if we're on vacation
  • 00:16:44.280 --> 00:16:47.220
  • and my children wanna go play on the beach
  • 00:16:47.220 --> 00:16:49.050
  • on the water in the ocean and I can't do that.
  • 00:16:49.050 --> 00:16:52.000
  • In that moment, as I'm sitting on that beach,
  • 00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:54.170
  • I'll go, "Ohhh, I can't walk, ohhh."
  • 00:16:54.170 --> 00:16:57.140
  • But in that moment, I have to go forgive,
  • 00:16:57.140 --> 00:16:59.190
  • look at how, my perspective has to change again and go,
  • 00:16:59.190 --> 00:17:03.040
  • "But look at your two healthy children.
  • 00:17:03.040 --> 00:17:04.260
  • You're able to take them on vacation."
  • 00:17:04.260 --> 00:17:06.210
  • And in those moments is where forgiveness comes back.
  • 00:17:06.210 --> 00:17:09.180
  • I wanna teach my six year old daughter
  • 00:17:09.180 --> 00:17:11.000
  • how to ride a bike, and I can't do it.
  • 00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:13.040
  • Again forgiveness goes, "Hashim, let it go.
  • 00:17:13.040 --> 00:17:15.120
  • Be grateful for what you do have,
  • 00:17:15.120 --> 00:17:17.090
  • as opposed to things that you can't do."
  • 00:17:17.090 --> 00:17:20.030
  • (gentle piano music)
  • 00:17:20.030 --> 00:17:23.040
  • - Something important that Jesus says
  • 00:17:38.070 --> 00:17:39.110
  • that we can be forgiven,
  • 00:17:39.110 --> 00:17:40.130
  • but as you alluded to before,
  • 00:17:40.130 --> 00:17:41.210
  • it's that whole call to forgive others as well.
  • 00:17:41.210 --> 00:17:43.290
  • - Yes. Yes.
  • 00:17:43.290 --> 00:17:45.070
  • - What gives us the ability to do that?
  • 00:17:45.070 --> 00:17:47.170
  • - Because we've been forgiven.
  • 00:17:47.170 --> 00:17:49.130
  • It's very much a model of example.
  • 00:17:49.130 --> 00:17:52.260
  • There's that lovely parable
  • 00:17:52.260 --> 00:17:54.270
  • which I really find kind of gets right to the heart of it.
  • 00:17:54.270 --> 00:17:57.190
  • There's a judge who forgives somebody a debt
  • 00:17:57.190 --> 00:18:01.090
  • and that person whose been forgiven their debt,
  • 00:18:01.090 --> 00:18:03.190
  • goes out and pulls somebody in who owes them something
  • 00:18:03.190 --> 00:18:06.220
  • and kind of screws the money out of them.
  • 00:18:06.220 --> 00:18:09.060
  • And the point is, that if we think forgiveness
  • 00:18:09.060 --> 00:18:11.200
  • is in any way important, we got to do it ourselves.
  • 00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:15.110
  • Because what we have been forgiven,
  • 00:18:15.110 --> 00:18:17.230
  • we therefore need to go and show
  • 00:18:17.230 --> 00:18:19.100
  • that forgiveness to other people.
  • 00:18:19.100 --> 00:18:20.290
  • - I often say that forgiveness is about you
  • 00:18:20.290 --> 00:18:23.030
  • it's not about the other person.
  • 00:18:23.030 --> 00:18:24.230
  • When you forgive someone for hurting you,
  • 00:18:24.230 --> 00:18:26.290
  • or saying something mean, it doesn't let them off the hook,
  • 00:18:26.290 --> 00:18:29.230
  • but what you're doing is just releasing that grudge,
  • 00:18:29.230 --> 00:18:32.010
  • you're not carrying around that bitterness,
  • 00:18:32.010 --> 00:18:34.020
  • you're no longer carrying around that anger.
  • 00:18:34.020 --> 00:18:35.270
  • So it's really for you, it's not for the other person.
  • 00:18:35.270 --> 00:18:38.230
  • I still think if someone harms you,
  • 00:18:38.230 --> 00:18:41.220
  • you should press charges,
  • 00:18:41.220 --> 00:18:43.050
  • that's what the criminal justice system is set up for.
  • 00:18:43.050 --> 00:18:46.140
  • But, internally, it's about lifting off from that anger.
  • 00:18:46.140 --> 00:18:50.090
  • It's about lifting off from the cancer of bitterness.
  • 00:18:50.090 --> 00:18:53.220
  • Because when you're angry with someone else,
  • 00:18:53.220 --> 00:18:56.270
  • it has a rippling effect and now you take that anger
  • 00:18:56.270 --> 00:18:59.070
  • out on people around you, including yourself.
  • 00:18:59.070 --> 00:19:02.050
  • So that's where forgiveness comes, it's about you.
  • 00:19:02.050 --> 00:19:04.260
  • (Soft piano)
  • 00:19:04.260 --> 00:19:06.150
  • - Forgiveness is costly
  • 00:19:06.150 --> 00:19:08.040
  • because forgiveness is sacrifice.
  • 00:19:08.040 --> 00:19:10.050
  • Even if you say to someone, "It doesn't matter."
  • 00:19:10.050 --> 00:19:13.230
  • It's costly to you because you are absorbing
  • 00:19:13.230 --> 00:19:16.130
  • either the awkwardness of a rude statement,
  • 00:19:16.130 --> 00:19:18.280
  • or if someone's wrecked your car, you're gonna absorb.
  • 00:19:18.280 --> 00:19:21.250
  • Even if you go, "Oh that's fine, I forgive you."
  • 00:19:21.250 --> 00:19:23.270
  • You absorb the cost.
  • 00:19:23.270 --> 00:19:25.230
  • Relationships that mean something, they go the distance
  • 00:19:25.230 --> 00:19:29.180
  • marriages,
  • 00:19:29.180 --> 00:19:30.180
  • friendships,
  • 00:19:30.180 --> 00:19:31.270
  • parenting that works
  • 00:19:31.270 --> 00:19:34.020
  • in society, is so costly because again
  • 00:19:34.020 --> 00:19:36.290
  • and again and again you say,
  • 00:19:36.290 --> 00:19:39.090
  • "I am not willing to sacrifice relationship with you,
  • 00:19:39.090 --> 00:19:42.210
  • so I will sacrifice myself to sustain our relationship."
  • 00:19:42.210 --> 00:19:46.210
  • And that model for life and relationship
  • 00:19:46.210 --> 00:19:49.250
  • and forgiveness only came at the Cross.
  • 00:19:49.250 --> 00:19:53.020
  • - So how does Jesus give or offer forgiveness to people?
  • 00:19:55.220 --> 00:20:00.010
  • - This is what was really radical.
  • 00:20:00.010 --> 00:20:02.140
  • When we read the Gospels, we get a bit confused by it.
  • 00:20:02.140 --> 00:20:06.040
  • If you remember the time when the Jewish leaders got
  • 00:20:06.040 --> 00:20:08.280
  • most irated about Jesus was when he forgave people.
  • 00:20:08.280 --> 00:20:12.040
  • They said, "You can't do it. It's not allowed.
  • 00:20:12.040 --> 00:20:14.120
  • It has to happen inside the temple by God."
  • 00:20:14.120 --> 00:20:17.110
  • So, actually one of the things that Jesus was doing
  • 00:20:17.110 --> 00:20:20.000
  • was simply saying, "I am letting your sins go."
  • 00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:23.160
  • The thing I love about the Greek word, it simply means
  • 00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:26.030
  • the word for forgiveness simply means "let go".
  • 00:20:26.030 --> 00:20:28.280
  • And there is, I think,
  • 00:20:28.280 --> 00:20:30.180
  • something really profound about that.
  • 00:20:30.180 --> 00:20:32.150
  • The people who do the forgiveness "let go" of the sin,
  • 00:20:32.150 --> 00:20:36.210
  • it's like a balloon, you let it go and off it goes.
  • 00:20:36.210 --> 00:20:39.100
  • But then also the people who need
  • 00:20:39.100 --> 00:20:40.260
  • forgiveness have to let it go as well.
  • 00:20:40.260 --> 00:20:43.200
  • And it's that kind of double letting go
  • 00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:45.220
  • which is for me a really significant element of forgiveness.
  • 00:20:45.220 --> 00:20:49.030
  • - Paula, Jesus alluded towards the Cross,
  • 00:20:49.030 --> 00:20:51.020
  • that the Cross was going to offer forgiveness
  • 00:20:51.020 --> 00:20:52.220
  • and then the early Church talked
  • 00:20:52.220 --> 00:20:54.020
  • about the Cross gave forgiveness.
  • 00:20:54.020 --> 00:20:55.190
  • How does the Cross give forgiveness?
  • 00:20:55.190 --> 00:20:57.100
  • - Well, one of the things that you've got to bear in mind,
  • 00:20:57.100 --> 00:21:01.020
  • is that, actually, the early Church spent most of it's time
  • 00:21:01.020 --> 00:21:05.030
  • in the early years, trying to work out what it means.
  • 00:21:05.030 --> 00:21:09.020
  • So, you want a really easy answer.
  • 00:21:09.020 --> 00:21:11.080
  • There isn't a really easy answer.
  • 00:21:11.080 --> 00:21:12.180
  • - Okay.
  • 00:21:12.180 --> 00:21:14.020
  • - So, what I often say is that actually what you need is
  • 00:21:14.020 --> 00:21:15.220
  • both the Death and the Resurrection.
  • 00:21:15.220 --> 00:21:17.130
  • We need to be really careful not
  • 00:21:17.130 --> 00:21:18.230
  • to over-focus on just the Death.
  • 00:21:18.230 --> 00:21:21.040
  • The Resurrection on its own doesn't work
  • 00:21:21.040 --> 00:21:22.270
  • because you can't rise if you've not died.
  • 00:21:22.270 --> 00:21:25.050
  • But the Death on its own doesn't work
  • 00:21:25.050 --> 00:21:26.270
  • because actually, if Jesus has just died,
  • 00:21:26.270 --> 00:21:29.050
  • sins still wouldn't be saved-
  • 00:21:29.050 --> 00:21:32.100
  • sins still wouldn't be forgiven
  • 00:21:32.100 --> 00:21:33.220
  • in quite the same kind of way.
  • 00:21:33.220 --> 00:21:35.130
  • The point of about the Death and Resurrection,
  • 00:21:35.130 --> 00:21:37.200
  • is that Jesus' death allows you out of the old way of being.
  • 00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:41.290
  • Jesus' resurrection allows you into a new way of being.
  • 00:21:41.290 --> 00:21:46.170
  • - In some ways, I believe that all forgiveness is an echo.
  • 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:53.230
  • Sometimes muted,
  • 00:21:53.230 --> 00:21:55.030
  • sometimes garbled,
  • 00:21:56.110 --> 00:21:58.080
  • but nonetheless an echo of God's forgiveness to us.
  • 00:21:58.080 --> 00:22:02.180
  • - Why couldn't God have just wiped the slate clean?
  • 00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:06.230
  • Why the Cross?
  • 00:22:06.230 --> 00:22:07.270
  • - Because justice matters.
  • 00:22:07.270 --> 00:22:10.020
  • You see, how I treat you matters to God,
  • 00:22:12.010 --> 00:22:13.180
  • and how you treat me matters to God
  • 00:22:13.180 --> 00:22:14.270
  • and how we treat the world matters to God.
  • 00:22:14.270 --> 00:22:16.120
  • That's why it's a great thing there's a judgment to come.
  • 00:22:16.120 --> 00:22:19.120
  • It's a great thing there's a judgment to come,
  • 00:22:19.120 --> 00:22:21.060
  • because people have been profoundly hurt.
  • 00:22:21.060 --> 00:22:24.190
  • And we look to Judgment Day for justice to happen.
  • 00:22:26.020 --> 00:22:29.140
  • And that goes right through history.
  • 00:22:29.140 --> 00:22:31.150
  • There might be people listening now,
  • 00:22:31.150 --> 00:22:33.070
  • and they're saying they're victims as well
  • 00:22:33.070 --> 00:22:35.040
  • as rebels in God's world; they're victims.
  • 00:22:35.040 --> 00:22:37.000
  • They've had something terrible happen.
  • 00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:38.160
  • I'm saying it matters to God there'll be Day of Judgment.
  • 00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:41.030
  • But on that Day of Judgment, who pays for sin?
  • 00:22:41.030 --> 00:22:44.120
  • Either I can pay myself in a place called Hell,
  • 00:22:44.120 --> 00:22:46.290
  • and Jesus is the theologian of Hell,
  • 00:22:46.290 --> 00:22:48.210
  • the most loving man that ever lived,
  • 00:22:48.210 --> 00:22:50.120
  • he speaks again and again of Hell.
  • 00:22:50.120 --> 00:22:51.270
  • Or, I can allow Jesus to pay as He dies on the Cross.
  • 00:22:51.270 --> 00:22:56.150
  • So justice matters, sin must be paid for.
  • 00:22:56.150 --> 00:22:59.010
  • You can pay for yourself in Hell,
  • 00:22:59.010 --> 00:23:00.210
  • or you can allow Jesus to pay.
  • 00:23:00.210 --> 00:23:02.290
  • But, He pays by dying on the Cross.
  • 00:23:02.290 --> 00:23:06.130
  • (soft tonal music)
  • 00:23:06.130 --> 00:23:09.100
  • - So what should someone do?
  • 00:23:15.180 --> 00:23:17.060
  • If they're watching and listening
  • 00:23:17.060 --> 00:23:18.280
  • and considering all of this?
  • 00:23:18.280 --> 00:23:20.070
  • And they think, "Well, I really need
  • 00:23:20.070 --> 00:23:21.200
  • to do something about that."
  • 00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:22.170
  • What should they do?
  • 00:23:22.170 --> 00:23:23.230
  • - Well, the first thing you've gotta do,
  • 00:23:23.230 --> 00:23:24.290
  • and can I say this will be very important
  • 00:23:24.290 --> 00:23:25.290
  • for all your relationships,
  • 00:23:25.290 --> 00:23:27.070
  • not just with the Lord, but others,
  • 00:23:27.070 --> 00:23:28.130
  • is you've got to accept that in God's world,
  • 00:23:28.130 --> 00:23:31.000
  • you've rebelled against.
  • 00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:32.260
  • You've got to accept that you have
  • 00:23:32.260 --> 00:23:34.070
  • not lived as you should in His world.
  • 00:23:34.070 --> 00:23:36.030
  • And that might mean you've made good things,
  • 00:23:36.030 --> 00:23:39.010
  • God things, like the kids,
  • 00:23:39.010 --> 00:23:40.200
  • or their education, or the career.
  • 00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:42.240
  • But you've taken the gifts of God,
  • 00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:44.260
  • you've put God on one side,
  • 00:23:44.260 --> 00:23:46.170
  • and you've lived your own way.
  • 00:23:46.170 --> 00:23:48.170
  • So you've got to accept you've sinned.
  • 00:23:48.170 --> 00:23:50.240
  • Secondly, you've got to believe that Christ died for you.
  • 00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:54.040
  • That when He died on the Cross,
  • 00:23:54.040 --> 00:23:55.250
  • He died for you in your place.
  • 00:23:55.250 --> 00:23:58.020
  • It's an amazing thing, the Cross isn't just
  • 00:23:58.020 --> 00:23:59.260
  • as I say, this Gala in Galilee and come to die.
  • 00:23:59.260 --> 00:24:02.120
  • Thirdly, you've got to count the cost,
  • 00:24:02.120 --> 00:24:04.050
  • which is lovely, it's wonderful to count the cost.
  • 00:24:04.050 --> 00:24:07.030
  • Because it means that you're for what Jesus is for,
  • 00:24:07.030 --> 00:24:10.020
  • you're against what he's against.
  • 00:24:10.020 --> 00:24:11.210
  • Jesus died for you, look at His life, it's a perfect life.
  • 00:24:11.210 --> 00:24:14.220
  • Can't you trust Him to lead you?
  • 00:24:14.220 --> 00:24:16.230
  • So you count the cost.
  • 00:24:16.230 --> 00:24:18.000
  • That'll mean turning away from stuff,
  • 00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:19.160
  • but everything He calls you to turn away from you,
  • 00:24:19.160 --> 00:24:21.070
  • is not beneficial, He knows what's best.
  • 00:24:21.070 --> 00:24:23.260
  • And then lastly, you say, having accepted your sin,
  • 00:24:23.260 --> 00:24:26.210
  • believe Christ died for you, counted the cost,
  • 00:24:26.210 --> 00:24:29.260
  • Lastly you say, "Lord Jesus,
  • 00:24:29.260 --> 00:24:32.180
  • thank you for dying for me on the Cross.
  • 00:24:32.180 --> 00:24:34.280
  • I'm so sorry for my wrongdoing, please come into my life,
  • 00:24:34.280 --> 00:24:38.020
  • by Your Holy Spirit, and be my Lord and Master."
  • 00:24:38.020 --> 00:24:42.060
  • So it's an amazing thing, we can say a prayer,
  • 00:24:42.060 --> 00:24:45.040
  • because all the work is being done by Jesus.
  • 00:24:45.040 --> 00:24:47.190
  • So if I link up with God, He lives forever,
  • 00:24:47.190 --> 00:24:51.110
  • and I'll live forever, this piece of dust,
  • 00:24:51.110 --> 00:24:54.020
  • I'll live forever because I'm linked up with God
  • 00:24:54.020 --> 00:24:56.130
  • through what Jesus done.
  • 00:24:56.130 --> 00:24:58.070
  • Now for me, can I say, that's a total game changer,
  • 00:24:58.070 --> 00:25:00.170
  • because it gives me eternity.
  • 00:25:00.170 --> 00:25:02.280
  • (inspirational music)
  • 00:25:05.030 --> 00:25:08.070