Episode 12 | Science | TBN

Episode 12 | Science

Watch Episode 12 | Science
November 20, 2018
26:31

Jesus the Game Changer

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Episode 12 | Science

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  • - There are people who think that those who follow Jesus
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  • are gullible fools, back in the beginning,
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  • the first followers of Jesus, or even today,
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  • but there's one story that's really instructive
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  • at the end of Jesus' time on earth.
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  • It involves when Jesus appeared to His disciples,
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  • risen, and they talked to a friend who wasn't there,
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  • and they say to Thomas, one of Jesus' key followers,
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  • great news, Jesus is risen,
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  • and Thomas' response, remember, he's completely committed
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  • to the person of Jesus, was, I don't believe you,
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  • it's not true, unless I put my hands
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  • in the holes in His hands, and my hand
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  • in His side, I'm not gonna believe it.
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  • When Jesus appears to Thomas, his response was,
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  • "My Lord, and my God."
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  • He saw it was true, and what was true for Thomas then
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  • is still true for us now.
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  • (upbeat electronic music)
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  • - Science, you know, in our day,
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  • so many people think of faith and science as enemies.
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  • But a lot of folks who have worked on the history of science
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  • have posed the question, why is it that science
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  • actually grew up, in the human race
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  • as we know science today,
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  • in the era of the medieval church, and a great thinker,
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  • Alfred North Whitehead, when he was asked,
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  • what made possible the rise of science,
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  • his answer was, it was the medieval insistence
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  • on the rationality of God,
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  • because it requires, a lot of folks would say,
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  • in order to do science, the belief that creation
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  • is orderly, because it was made by a rational,
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  • orderly God, but also, that it's unpredictable,
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  • because that God is far beyond us,
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  • so that we would have to do empirical work,
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  • we would have to experiment, to try to find out
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  • about the order that's there
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  • but that we couldn't just intuit,
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  • so the notion that science and faith are enemies
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  • is actually a fairly aberrant, and pretty recent one,
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  • and the reality is that science
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  • grew out of faith communities
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  • and the early folks who made a huge impact on science
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  • were almost universally also believers in God,
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  • and followers of Jesus.
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  • (soft music)
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  • - Observing the world goes back a long way.
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  • Aristotle, in my disciple of politics,
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  • Aristotle's known as the first political scientist,
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  • but the first scientists in modernity in Europe
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  • were people of Catholic faith, for the most part,
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  • Galileo and others, and again, the idea is
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  • is that we can study God's creation.
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  • There's no question that the church
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  • and all churches have historical moments that they regret,
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  • and we think of historical moments in which scientists
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  • were put to death for saying things that didn't agree
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  • with the teaching of the church,
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  • but at the same time, to the church's credit,
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  • they came around ultimately,
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  • and said, you know, you're right.
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  • And so there has to be something that says,
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  • we wanna study creation, there's something to study,
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  • we need to study every aspect of creation,
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  • and in a certain sense, Christianity pushed that.
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  • (upbeat music)
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  • - I mean, science begins in these early universities.
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  • The world is rational, because it was created
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  • by a rational God.
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  • The world will run according to rules,
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  • because God not only created the basis of reason,
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  • but He gave us reason so that we could understand things.
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  • And the assumption that the world could be understood
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  • was the whole basis of what came to be western civilization.
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  • You don't study and look
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  • for explanations of how the world works
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  • if you don't believe that the world works
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  • according to reason.
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  • And if you look back in the philosophy of China,
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  • at the time, and whatnot,
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  • everybody outside the Christian West believed
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  • that the world was incomprehensible
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  • because it was an eternal mystery,
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  • that you could meditate on it,
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  • but it was pointless to try to understand it
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  • because it was under-understandable.
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  • The Christians, to the contrary,
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  • believed that it could be understood,
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  • and some of the very earliest church fathers are saying,
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  • we don't understand this today, but we will.
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  • (upbeat music)
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  • - This is the cathedral of Christchurch.
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  • Tell us about John Locke.
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  • - John Locke was known as the Father of British Empiricism,
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  • that is to say, he was the father, really,
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  • of the British way of doing philosophy of science,
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  • and although he put this huge emphasis on the importance
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  • of science and experiment, in a sense, experience,
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  • he was also, quite clearly a committed Christian.
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  • He wrote, in 1695, a very interesting little book,
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  • called The Reasonableness of Christianity,
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  • that is to say, something that was capable
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  • of being reasoned about, and argued about.
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  • He lived and embodied the integration of philosophy,
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  • science, and Christian commitment.
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  • (upbeat music)
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  • - For the people who first started the science
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  • were regarded as philosophers, at the time.
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  • They were called natural philosophers,
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  • who studied the philosophy of nature.
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  • The question we have to ask, I think,
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  • about the 17th century
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  • is what was distinctive about that period
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  • that gave rise to science in a way
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  • that really happened nowhere else,
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  • in no other culture, and at no other time?
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  • And then my argument would be
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  • that there are specific elements to do
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  • with the Christian tradition that are important
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  • in precipitating the emergence of modern science
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  • as we know it, and so, of course, it's, in a sense,
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  • it's an obvious point to make,
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  • but the vast bulk of people involved in the emergence
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  • of early modern science or modern science
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  • in the 17th century were Christian believers,
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  • and for a number of them,
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  • Christian theological principles were important
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  • to the underpinning and the motivation
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  • of their scientific activities.
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  • - Now a lot of people would be really surprised to hear that
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  • because right now, which is what we're gonna explore,
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  • that there's a big divide, it seems,
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  • between those with religious belief
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  • and those who are kind of scientists,
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  • almost like you can't be the same,
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  • but it's intriguing that basically,
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  • the roots of science in the 17th century,
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  • was actually out of people of faith.
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  • - That's right, and so it's not merely the case
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  • that these were people of faith,
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  • but that their faith actually informed
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  • the way they pursued science, and the sorts of assumptions
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  • they thought that were necessary to doing good science,
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  • and many of them were engaged,
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  • not merely in scientific activities,
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  • but also what we call theological speculation.
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  • So Isaac Newton is, perhaps,
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  • the most famous scientist ever,
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  • wrote much more on theological topics
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  • than he did on scientific topics,
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  • and you know, one historian has remarked
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  • that Newton was a 17th century theologian,
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  • who wrote a few small works on science.
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  • - Yeah.
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  • - You know, you get the idea that there was, at the time,
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  • no concept of a conflict
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  • between fundamental religious beliefs
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  • and scientific beliefs.
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  • On the contrary, they were regarded as mutually supportive.
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  • - You did some research on the first scientists,
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  • didn't you, the first people that we kind of,
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  • scientists as we understood them,
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  • and scientists, now, science and scientists
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  • are often pitted against Christian faith.
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  • What were the first scientists like?
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  • - Well, the first scientists really go back
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  • to the early universities, and they were all ordained.
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  • I mean, we're talking about priests,
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  • and some of them were cardinals, even.
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  • And then when we come into what's called
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  • the scientific revolution of the 1700s,
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  • these were profoundly religious men,
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  • and I say men because there weren't any women
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  • among them, for all kinds of reasons,
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  • but the fact is that Newton wrote a lot more theology
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  • than he did physics.
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  • He was a very religious man.
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  • Most of them were.
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  • There was only one, Halley,
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  • who probably was irreligious.
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  • Probably 20, 30% of them
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  • were actually priests and ordained.
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  • They were a very religious group of people,
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  • and they were in religious universities,
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  • for the most part.
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  • They not only just saw no contradiction
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  • between religion and science,
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  • they saw nothing but a meshing and a complete fit
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  • between religion and science.
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  • We have science because of religion.
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  • That's how much it fit together,
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  • and there is no necessarily inconsistency.
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  • Religion is not about the material world,
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  • in the sense in which we're talking
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  • about the existence of God and whatnot.
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  • Science is only about the material world.
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  • Science can say nothing about whether an immaterial
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  • or a spiritual world exists or doesn't exist.
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  • Scientists can say they don't believe it,
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  • but science, as such, can't tell you anything
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  • about a nonmaterial realm.
  • 00:10:40.170 --> 00:10:43.110
  • (soft music)
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  • So there's no overlap, and the two have no need
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  • to collide at all.
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  • (soft music)
  • 00:10:50.110 --> 00:10:52.240
  • - We need to see that science is only one way
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  • of looking at the world, and only certain types
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  • of subject matter are accessible
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  • by that scientific approach method.
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  • It can't, for example,
  • 00:11:09.130 --> 00:11:10.240
  • tell us that mathematical truths are real.
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  • It can't tell us about logical propositions,
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  • it can't tell us which body we're in at the moment
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  • is our body, even though we all know that we're in a body
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  • and that we are in a particular body.
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  • It can't tell us about our histories.
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  • You can't do a scientific test to show that the history
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  • that you know is yours is yours,
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  • and we have to recognize that the social sciences:
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  • English, literature, the arts, have all been considered,
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  • for the longest period of history,
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  • valid inquiries into reality,
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  • and that there are a lot of different ways
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  • of looking into reality and so I think
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  • that in just the same way as historical scholarship
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  • and English scholarship should be taken seriously,
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  • we should be careful and cautious
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  • and use the tools and principles appropriate
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  • to that way of looking at the world.
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  • Neither should we become highly, highly skeptical,
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  • but we can't know anything apart from scientific things,
  • 00:12:06.190 --> 00:12:09.140
  • nor should we just become overly committed to some things
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  • that we don't have good evidence for,
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  • but maybe there's a way, somewhere in the middle,
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  • that we can have an open mind,
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  • but equally look at facts and look at the information
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  • that we have, even if it's not right before us
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  • in a scientific experiment.
  • 00:12:24.190 --> 00:12:26.150
  • - So if we went back and met you, as a young man,
  • 00:12:26.150 --> 00:12:29.210
  • was belief and faith and recognizing the person of Jesus
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  • as a 15 year old reasonable in your life?
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  • - No, I wouldn't say that recognizing God's authority
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  • and interest in my life was something was true of me
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  • when I was 15.
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  • - [Karl] So what were you like back then?
  • 00:12:46.250 --> 00:12:48.100
  • - I was a bit of a handful, it's probably true to say.
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  • I was quite into drugs.
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  • I was quite into smoking marijuana,
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  • and I had alienated myself from my family
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  • and from education, in quite a big way,
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  • by the time I was 16/17,
  • 00:13:03.210 --> 00:13:05.220
  • and was really seeking my own escape and my own truths
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  • in my own way, as best as I could.
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  • That led me to do lots of different jobs,
  • 00:13:16.110 --> 00:13:18.240
  • some of them more responsible than others,
  • 00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:21.200
  • and then, finally, to decide to go to university,
  • 00:13:21.200 --> 00:13:25.100
  • and to try to look at questions
  • 00:13:25.100 --> 00:13:28.170
  • that I thought were interesting
  • 00:13:28.170 --> 00:13:29.280
  • through studying philosophy at university.
  • 00:13:29.280 --> 00:13:32.070
  • - So how did studying philosophy influence your life?
  • 00:13:32.070 --> 00:13:34.270
  • - It gave me permission to ask questions,
  • 00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:40.080
  • and to think about things, and it gave me tools
  • 00:13:41.270 --> 00:13:46.070
  • to sort out good answers from bad answers
  • 00:13:46.070 --> 00:13:49.030
  • to sort out truth from fiction
  • 00:13:49.030 --> 00:13:51.120
  • when somebody answered a question,
  • 00:13:51.120 --> 00:13:53.240
  • and I was intrigued by the old questions,
  • 00:13:53.240 --> 00:13:58.060
  • the real questions of philosophy:
  • 00:13:58.060 --> 00:14:00.220
  • who are we, where has the universe come from,
  • 00:14:00.220 --> 00:14:03.100
  • where are we going, what can we hope for,
  • 00:14:03.100 --> 00:14:05.210
  • what significance do our lives have,
  • 00:14:05.210 --> 00:14:07.190
  • what is right and wrong, where do these things come from,
  • 00:14:07.190 --> 00:14:10.220
  • what is the best explanation, the best worldview,
  • 00:14:10.220 --> 00:14:13.200
  • or the best story that makes sense of the answers
  • 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:16.070
  • that we search out in these sorts of discussions?
  • 00:14:16.070 --> 00:14:19.100
  • - Now, you obviously have dismissed Christian faith,
  • 00:14:19.100 --> 00:14:22.150
  • and you're pursuing this from a university setting,
  • 00:14:22.150 --> 00:14:26.010
  • philosophical position.
  • 00:14:26.010 --> 00:14:27.190
  • What's the way to navigate through those questions,
  • 00:14:27.190 --> 00:14:30.100
  • 'cause they have huge questions.
  • 00:14:30.100 --> 00:14:31.170
  • - So I was the undergraduate president
  • 00:14:31.170 --> 00:14:33.020
  • of the Philosophy Society at the university,
  • 00:14:33.020 --> 00:14:35.240
  • and I was exploring and thinking about Christian faith,
  • 00:14:35.240 --> 00:14:38.250
  • and I began to read and think about the arguments
  • 00:14:38.250 --> 00:14:42.150
  • for the existence of God,
  • 00:14:42.150 --> 00:14:44.010
  • and I began to be impacted by these arguments.
  • 00:14:44.010 --> 00:14:46.230
  • I would've described myself, at that point,
  • 00:14:46.230 --> 00:14:48.080
  • as being atheist, naturalist, Buddhist kind of leaning,
  • 00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:52.160
  • and I began to be impacted, and I sat back
  • 00:14:52.160 --> 00:14:55.140
  • a couple of times and said to myself,
  • 00:14:55.140 --> 00:14:57.170
  • these arguments are actually quite intriguing.
  • 00:14:57.170 --> 00:15:00.100
  • I can't write off religious believers
  • 00:15:00.100 --> 00:15:03.080
  • as being unintelligent anymore.
  • 00:15:03.080 --> 00:15:05.180
  • I've got to recognize some of these arguments
  • 00:15:05.180 --> 00:15:08.000
  • are actually quite interesting and quite stimulating,
  • 00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:10.160
  • and are worthy of a lot more investigation.
  • 00:15:10.160 --> 00:15:13.200
  • - Was it something that you were drawn to?
  • 00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:14.290
  • 'Cause I would imagine, in that setting,
  • 00:15:14.290 --> 00:15:17.180
  • with the life that you'd lived,
  • 00:15:17.180 --> 00:15:19.040
  • that would've been something you would've pushed against.
  • 00:15:19.040 --> 00:15:20.250
  • I mean, was it difficult to grapple with those questions?
  • 00:15:20.250 --> 00:15:24.120
  • - My parents, who I didn't get on with,
  • 00:15:24.120 --> 00:15:27.130
  • had become Christians when I was in my mid to early teens
  • 00:15:27.130 --> 00:15:32.130
  • and because they were Christians,
  • 00:15:33.230 --> 00:15:38.040
  • and because we didn't get on,
  • 00:15:38.040 --> 00:15:39.190
  • I really didn't want it to be true.
  • 00:15:40.230 --> 00:15:42.200
  • I really didn't want it to be true.
  • 00:15:42.200 --> 00:15:45.060
  • It was the last thing I wanted to be true.
  • 00:15:45.060 --> 00:15:47.250
  • (soft music)
  • 00:15:47.250 --> 00:15:49.150
  • - One of the narratives often talked about,
  • 00:15:49.150 --> 00:15:50.260
  • about that period is actually the case of Galileo,
  • 00:15:50.260 --> 00:15:54.010
  • the idea that he was a scientist,
  • 00:15:54.010 --> 00:15:55.140
  • saw the change with the earth revolving around the sun
  • 00:15:55.140 --> 00:15:58.140
  • and it was the church, because they believed in the Bible,
  • 00:15:58.140 --> 00:16:01.060
  • that said that's not true.
  • 00:16:01.060 --> 00:16:02.250
  • How do you see that?
  • 00:16:02.250 --> 00:16:04.100
  • - Yeah, well, the Galileo story is one of the classic,
  • 00:16:04.100 --> 00:16:06.290
  • exemplary historical instances of science/religion conflict.
  • 00:16:06.290 --> 00:16:10.080
  • It's one of the best known,
  • 00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:11.240
  • most worked over historical episodes
  • 00:16:11.240 --> 00:16:13.260
  • by historians of science.
  • 00:16:13.260 --> 00:16:15.100
  • They know it really well, and they know that that story
  • 00:16:15.100 --> 00:16:17.000
  • is completely wrong.
  • 00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:17.250
  • - Oh really?
  • 00:16:17.250 --> 00:16:19.090
  • - And it's completely wrong for a number of reasons,
  • 00:16:19.090 --> 00:16:21.020
  • but look, the bottom line, I think,
  • 00:16:21.020 --> 00:16:22.250
  • is this science and religion conflict, one,
  • 00:16:22.250 --> 00:16:26.210
  • and two, is it typical of the way the Catholic church
  • 00:16:26.210 --> 00:16:29.050
  • dealt with science at the time?
  • 00:16:29.050 --> 00:16:31.100
  • So to take the second question first,
  • 00:16:31.100 --> 00:16:33.090
  • the Catholic church was the most significant sponsor
  • 00:16:33.090 --> 00:16:36.220
  • of astronomical research for something like four
  • 00:16:36.220 --> 00:16:39.090
  • or 500 years, in the middle of which
  • 00:16:39.090 --> 00:16:41.090
  • the Galileo affair takes place.
  • 00:16:41.090 --> 00:16:42.290
  • - Right, yes.
  • 00:16:42.290 --> 00:16:44.120
  • - But the idea that the Catholic church is somehow opposed
  • 00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:45.190
  • to science is deeply mistaken.
  • 00:16:45.190 --> 00:16:47.270
  • Was it a science and religion conflict?
  • 00:16:47.270 --> 00:16:49.270
  • No, essentially, it was a conflict between two
  • 00:16:49.270 --> 00:16:53.010
  • competing scientific theories.
  • 00:16:53.010 --> 00:16:55.050
  • Copernicus had proposed an earth-centered,
  • 00:16:55.050 --> 00:16:58.010
  • sorry, a sun-center system some 50 or 60 years
  • 00:16:58.010 --> 00:17:01.170
  • before Galileo came on the scene,
  • 00:17:01.170 --> 00:17:03.120
  • it didn't generate, particularly, much controversy.
  • 00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:06.110
  • Galileo had telescopic evidence that he thought
  • 00:17:06.110 --> 00:17:08.200
  • supported the view, and indeed, it did, to some extent,
  • 00:17:08.200 --> 00:17:12.100
  • but there was a strong body of scientific evidence,
  • 00:17:12.100 --> 00:17:14.180
  • also, against the idea that the earth is in motion
  • 00:17:14.180 --> 00:17:17.210
  • around the sun, and I won't go into details,
  • 00:17:17.210 --> 00:17:20.120
  • but still, a parallax, for example,
  • 00:17:20.120 --> 00:17:22.120
  • was one scientific piece of scientific evidence,
  • 00:17:22.120 --> 00:17:24.240
  • and there was other evidence from physics, for example.
  • 00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:26.220
  • We don't seem to be hurtling through space
  • 00:17:26.220 --> 00:17:28.140
  • at thousands of miles an hour.
  • 00:17:28.140 --> 00:17:30.070
  • - Right, right.
  • 00:17:30.070 --> 00:17:31.140
  • - And the physics at the time couldn't explain
  • 00:17:31.140 --> 00:17:33.030
  • how the earth could possibly be in motion.
  • 00:17:33.030 --> 00:17:35.220
  • But the bottom line is the Galileo, I fear,
  • 00:17:35.220 --> 00:17:37.160
  • is a very complex and complicated one,
  • 00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:39.270
  • but it wasn't a clear-cut case of conflict
  • 00:17:39.270 --> 00:17:42.160
  • between science and religion,
  • 00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:43.260
  • and it certainly wasn't typical of Catholicism,
  • 00:17:43.260 --> 00:17:46.100
  • that they would be opposed to science.
  • 00:17:46.100 --> 00:17:48.270
  • - The better way of thinking about it is that the church
  • 00:17:48.270 --> 00:17:51.210
  • dominated every area of human life, human culture,
  • 00:17:53.040 --> 00:17:57.010
  • human study, human learning,
  • 00:17:57.010 --> 00:17:59.120
  • sometimes in incredibly positive ways,
  • 00:17:59.120 --> 00:18:01.210
  • sometimes in negative ways,
  • 00:18:01.210 --> 00:18:04.080
  • but the whole guild, the study, the discipline
  • 00:18:04.080 --> 00:18:09.080
  • of inquiring into reality and if it were the product
  • 00:18:10.220 --> 00:18:14.100
  • of a supremely intelligent, creative, loving being,
  • 00:18:14.100 --> 00:18:19.010
  • was just part of the culture, it was part of the fabric
  • 00:18:19.010 --> 00:18:23.200
  • of the way people understood the world.
  • 00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:28.180
  • Galileo, Copernicus, Kepler, all these great figures
  • 00:18:28.180 --> 00:18:32.110
  • grew up in that kind of context.
  • 00:18:32.110 --> 00:18:35.060
  • - Where did the break occur between science and faith?
  • 00:18:35.060 --> 00:18:39.290
  • So where did that happen?
  • 00:18:39.290 --> 00:18:41.170
  • - I think, in this movement we call the Enlightenment,
  • 00:18:41.170 --> 00:18:43.220
  • and what began to occur was, as people began to study
  • 00:18:43.220 --> 00:18:48.220
  • the natural world, a number of people came at it
  • 00:18:50.020 --> 00:18:54.110
  • with the idea that we can study the natural world
  • 00:18:55.240 --> 00:18:57.280
  • and consider things independent of God,
  • 00:18:57.280 --> 00:19:00.100
  • and so science began to study things
  • 00:19:00.100 --> 00:19:03.220
  • and move in directions that were away from faith,
  • 00:19:03.220 --> 00:19:07.030
  • and I would say the very best scientists, even today,
  • 00:19:10.170 --> 00:19:14.140
  • recognize that the scientific method doesn't really come
  • 00:19:14.140 --> 00:19:17.260
  • into a nonmaterial reality, and so if they're honest,
  • 00:19:17.260 --> 00:19:21.150
  • they don't make dogmatic statement about faith,
  • 00:19:21.150 --> 00:19:25.080
  • but we find that a number of people began
  • 00:19:26.220 --> 00:19:29.140
  • to look at science, see where science was going,
  • 00:19:29.140 --> 00:19:33.140
  • in a certain sense, and pronounce that God was dead.
  • 00:19:33.140 --> 00:19:36.020
  • - Hmm. - Prematurely.
  • 00:19:36.020 --> 00:19:37.210
  • - A lot of science writers, in those days,
  • 00:19:37.210 --> 00:19:40.050
  • and still, give presentations of what modern science
  • 00:19:40.050 --> 00:19:45.050
  • is discovering, and then, at the end,
  • 00:19:46.100 --> 00:19:47.150
  • there's what Mary Midgley, in philosophy,
  • 00:19:47.150 --> 00:19:50.150
  • used to call the Purple Passage,
  • 00:19:50.150 --> 00:19:52.220
  • where they suddenly take off, and go completely crazy,
  • 00:19:52.220 --> 00:19:56.010
  • and totalitarian, as it were, that is, to say,
  • 00:19:56.010 --> 00:19:58.190
  • that they come to think of the science
  • 00:19:58.190 --> 00:20:00.200
  • that they've just been explaining as providing the magic key
  • 00:20:00.200 --> 00:20:05.020
  • to absolutely any problem that we might come up against,
  • 00:20:05.020 --> 00:20:08.200
  • and I think I used to read those books and just say,
  • 00:20:08.200 --> 00:20:10.160
  • well, oh, right, here comes the Purple Passage.
  • 00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:12.160
  • It's time to put the book down, thank it,
  • 00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:14.150
  • and enjoy what has been presented to you,
  • 00:20:14.150 --> 00:20:16.230
  • but don't listen to the philosophical drivel at the end.
  • 00:20:16.230 --> 00:20:19.200
  • (soft music)
  • 00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:22.100
  • - I had to go where the argument led.
  • 00:20:22.100 --> 00:20:24.090
  • I had to follow down through the arguments, and say,
  • 00:20:24.090 --> 00:20:28.260
  • this Jesus person seems to be coming back at me,
  • 00:20:28.260 --> 00:20:31.130
  • and back at me again, not emotionally,
  • 00:20:31.130 --> 00:20:33.110
  • not psychologically, but through the arguments,
  • 00:20:33.110 --> 00:20:36.220
  • through the exercise and the use
  • 00:20:36.220 --> 00:20:39.020
  • of these rational investigations,
  • 00:20:39.020 --> 00:20:40.270
  • using logic to work out, okay,
  • 00:20:40.270 --> 00:20:43.210
  • is this is a good argument, is this a bad argument?
  • 00:20:43.210 --> 00:20:45.180
  • - So in other words, it wasn't that you kind of felt
  • 00:20:45.180 --> 00:20:48.060
  • like you needed it.
  • 00:20:48.060 --> 00:20:49.210
  • It stood, it kind of ran contrary to what you would want,
  • 00:20:49.210 --> 00:20:52.010
  • but almost, if I can use the word, truth or seeking
  • 00:20:52.010 --> 00:20:55.230
  • through reason to discover truth,
  • 00:20:55.230 --> 00:20:57.160
  • He is where you were led.
  • 00:20:57.160 --> 00:20:59.110
  • - I'd like to say that I didn't need it.
  • 00:20:59.110 --> 00:21:01.210
  • I now know that I really did,
  • 00:21:01.210 --> 00:21:03.190
  • but at that point, it wasn't an emotional
  • 00:21:03.190 --> 00:21:06.000
  • or psychological need that drove me to discover
  • 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:09.010
  • and investigate it.
  • 00:21:09.010 --> 00:21:10.220
  • I wouldn't have given up my integrity of mind
  • 00:21:10.220 --> 00:21:13.260
  • in order to believe something that I didn't think was true
  • 00:21:13.260 --> 00:21:16.230
  • in order to have an emotional benefit,
  • 00:21:16.230 --> 00:21:19.200
  • or a psychological benefit.
  • 00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:21.110
  • - So what was the place of going, yeah,
  • 00:21:21.110 --> 00:21:24.060
  • this is how I, where I'm gonna commit myself.
  • 00:21:24.060 --> 00:21:27.060
  • - So I come to believe that it was true,
  • 00:21:27.060 --> 00:21:28.260
  • and I'd been watching movies by Paul Thomas Anderson,
  • 00:21:28.260 --> 00:21:32.160
  • Terrance Malick, Christopher Nolan,
  • 00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:34.220
  • and I'd been thinking about the questions
  • 00:21:34.220 --> 00:21:36.160
  • that these movies were validating and asking.
  • 00:21:36.160 --> 00:21:39.240
  • Is there truth?
  • 00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:41.200
  • Are right and wrong the features of the same face?
  • 00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:45.120
  • What is the answer to why human beings exist?
  • 00:21:45.120 --> 00:21:48.150
  • What can we forgive?
  • 00:21:48.150 --> 00:21:49.230
  • What is right and wrong?
  • 00:21:49.230 --> 00:21:51.100
  • And I'd been quite struck by these questions
  • 00:21:51.100 --> 00:21:54.170
  • being my questions, too,
  • 00:21:54.170 --> 00:21:55.240
  • and I felt like I was a bit less crazy
  • 00:21:55.240 --> 00:21:57.120
  • for having watched these movies.
  • 00:21:57.120 --> 00:21:59.220
  • I also had to reduce the amount of marijuana
  • 00:21:59.220 --> 00:22:02.090
  • that I was smoking, because doing philosophical logic
  • 00:22:02.090 --> 00:22:06.090
  • and engineering mathematics while you're very stoned
  • 00:22:06.090 --> 00:22:10.060
  • leads to low scores and so I had to have my faculties
  • 00:22:10.060 --> 00:22:14.280
  • more available when I was doing my homework,
  • 00:22:14.280 --> 00:22:16.290
  • and so I reduced the amount I was smoking,
  • 00:22:16.290 --> 00:22:18.260
  • and I realized that these weren't just questions
  • 00:22:18.260 --> 00:22:21.030
  • that were interesting to me when I watched movies,
  • 00:22:21.030 --> 00:22:22.260
  • but actually, these questions were questions
  • 00:22:22.260 --> 00:22:25.040
  • that were personal, too.
  • 00:22:25.040 --> 00:22:26.120
  • It wasn't just an intellectual,
  • 00:22:26.120 --> 00:22:27.290
  • intellectually interesting to me,
  • 00:22:27.290 --> 00:22:30.090
  • but it was also a personal search, a personal journey,
  • 00:22:30.090 --> 00:22:33.000
  • and I eventually, a few months later,
  • 00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:34.170
  • got to the point where I said,
  • 00:22:34.170 --> 00:22:36.130
  • not only do I think this is true,
  • 00:22:36.130 --> 00:22:38.140
  • but I also need help here, and so I knelt down in my room
  • 00:22:38.140 --> 00:22:42.030
  • and I held out my hands, and I just said,
  • 00:22:42.030 --> 00:22:44.060
  • God, I'm not clean, I need you to clean me and help me.
  • 00:22:44.060 --> 00:22:47.240
  • Will you forgive me?
  • 00:22:47.240 --> 00:22:49.070
  • I want to know you, and that was the last night
  • 00:22:49.070 --> 00:22:52.040
  • that I smoked drugs, that was the last night
  • 00:22:52.040 --> 00:22:53.240
  • that I smoked a cigarette, that was the last night
  • 00:22:53.240 --> 00:22:55.210
  • that I got drunk.
  • 00:22:55.210 --> 00:22:56.200
  • (inspirational music)
  • 00:22:57.230 --> 00:23:01.000
  • - So Peter, in this conflict between science and religion,
  • 00:23:03.090 --> 00:23:06.040
  • and being a person of faith yourself,
  • 00:23:06.040 --> 00:23:07.230
  • how do you deal with that conflict?
  • 00:23:07.230 --> 00:23:09.180
  • - Hmm, well, to me, fundamentally,
  • 00:23:09.180 --> 00:23:12.130
  • there is no genuine conflict.
  • 00:23:12.130 --> 00:23:14.120
  • I think science tells us stories about how the world is,
  • 00:23:14.120 --> 00:23:18.200
  • science is actually a moving target.
  • 00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:20.260
  • It's constantly changing, but faith is more about values,
  • 00:23:20.260 --> 00:23:25.240
  • the purpose of our existence, why we're here,
  • 00:23:27.040 --> 00:23:29.280
  • and those are fundamental questions that you can't have
  • 00:23:29.280 --> 00:23:33.070
  • changing constantly, as different things are discovered.
  • 00:23:33.070 --> 00:23:36.240
  • So they're really two quite distinct realms, for me.
  • 00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:40.170
  • One is about the world, and what science provides us with
  • 00:23:40.170 --> 00:23:43.210
  • is fantastic information, and great technology,
  • 00:23:43.210 --> 00:23:46.240
  • and that's a really good thing.
  • 00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:48.100
  • It does many good things, but science doesn't answer
  • 00:23:48.100 --> 00:23:50.240
  • the fundamental questions that in my way of thinking,
  • 00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:54.030
  • are the most important questions.
  • 00:23:54.030 --> 00:23:56.110
  • - I thought that when I first approached Christianity
  • 00:23:56.110 --> 00:24:01.130
  • and Jesus that I was dealing with dry, traditional,
  • 00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:07.180
  • arid monotheism, belief that God is there,
  • 00:24:08.210 --> 00:24:12.130
  • and He's quite distant, and He sort of looks like an old man
  • 00:24:12.130 --> 00:24:14.210
  • with a beard, but Jesus was a game changer for me,
  • 00:24:14.210 --> 00:24:18.130
  • because He opened a window for me.
  • 00:24:18.130 --> 00:24:20.150
  • Seeing Him and seeing Him describe, reveal,
  • 00:24:20.150 --> 00:24:24.110
  • and show me what God was like,
  • 00:24:24.110 --> 00:24:27.100
  • He showed me that there was a different kind of God
  • 00:24:27.100 --> 00:24:30.050
  • who could be there, who could be real,
  • 00:24:30.050 --> 00:24:31.240
  • who could be interested in me.
  • 00:24:31.240 --> 00:24:33.220
  • He broke open that hard, dry, monotheism,
  • 00:24:33.220 --> 00:24:37.200
  • showed me this loving family who created the world.
  • 00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:41.090
  • He showed me that there could be a relationship,
  • 00:24:41.090 --> 00:24:44.100
  • that there could be a friendship,
  • 00:24:44.100 --> 00:24:46.030
  • and He showed me that He didn't just want
  • 00:24:46.030 --> 00:24:47.220
  • to rescue me and then leave me back there,
  • 00:24:47.220 --> 00:24:52.150
  • but He also wanted to have a friendship with me,
  • 00:24:52.150 --> 00:24:54.090
  • and He had plans for my life,
  • 00:24:54.090 --> 00:24:56.020
  • and that He had a way of restoring me
  • 00:24:56.020 --> 00:25:00.120
  • that left me, me, but also grew me.
  • 00:25:00.120 --> 00:25:05.060
  • (upbeat music)
  • 00:25:05.060 --> 00:25:07.240
  • He's calling me, yeah
  • 00:25:09.100 --> 00:25:14.100
  • I've seen Him and I'm alive
  • 00:25:15.070 --> 00:25:19.020
  • He's calling me, yeah
  • 00:25:19.020 --> 00:25:24.020
  • I've seen Him and I'm alive
  • 00:25:25.010 --> 00:25:29.150
  • He's calling me, yeah
  • 00:25:29.150 --> 00:25:34.150
  • I've seen Him, I'm alive
  • 00:25:35.120 --> 00:25:39.040
  • He's calling me, yeah
  • 00:25:39.040 --> 00:25:44.040
  • He's calling me, yeah
  • 00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:54.000
  • I've seen Him and I'm alive
  • 00:25:55.010 --> 00:25:58.280
  • He's calling me, yeah
  • 00:25:58.280 --> 00:26:04.000
  • I've seen Him and I'm alive
  • 00:26:05.010 --> 00:26:09.090
  • He's calling me, yeah
  • 00:26:09.090 --> 00:26:14.090
  • I've seen Him and I'm alive
  • 00:26:15.060 --> 00:26:19.280
  • He's calling me, yeah
  • 00:26:19.280 --> 00:26:24.260
  • I've seen Him and I'm alive
  • 00:26:25.230 --> 00:26:29.070
  • (soft electronic music)
  • 00:26:29.070 --> 00:26:32.170