Guests Ravi Zacharias and N.T. Wright | TBN

Guests Ravi Zacharias and N.T. Wright

Watch Guests Ravi Zacharias and N.T. Wright
August 23, 2019
28:16

The Eric Metaxas Radio Show

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Guests Ravi Zacharias and N.T. Wright

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  • [SMOOCH]
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  • [WHOOSH]
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  • [DOOR SLAMMING]
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  • [BING]
  • 00:00:06.210 --> 00:00:07.200
  • [REVVING, SCREECHING]
  • 00:00:07.200 --> 00:00:08.200
  • [PLOP]
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  • [WHOOSH]
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  • [MUSIC]
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  • - MALE: HEY.
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  • [MUSIC]
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  • [BOINK]
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  • [ENGINE REVVING]
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  • [BRAKES SQUEALING]
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  • [MUSIC]
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  • [CRASH]
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  • [CHEERS]
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  • [MUSIC]
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  • - ERIC METAXAS: RIGHT NOW I'D
  • 00:00:36.030 --> 00:00:37.060
  • LIKE TO INTRODUCE A PARTICULARLY
  • 00:00:37.060 --> 00:00:39.050
  • SPECIAL GUEST.
  • 00:00:39.050 --> 00:00:41.230
  • I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO HUNT DOWN
  • 00:00:42.050 --> 00:00:45.050
  • THE GREAT RAVI ZACHARIAS
  • 00:00:45.050 --> 00:00:46.060
  • FOR YEARS.
  • 00:00:46.060 --> 00:00:47.030
  • SOME OF YOU KNOW, IF YOU GO TO
  • 00:00:47.030 --> 00:00:48.040
  • SOCRATESINTHECITY.COM,
  • 00:00:49.000 --> 00:00:52.000
  • I'VE INTERVIEWED ALL KINDS OF
  • 00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:52.210
  • PEOPLE THERE,
  • 00:00:52.210 --> 00:00:54.000
  • AND PEOPLE ALWAYS SAY TO ME,
  • 00:00:54.000 --> 00:00:54.200
  • "HAVE YOU HAD
  • 00:00:54.200 --> 00:00:55.030
  • AND THE ANSWER, INEVITABLY,
  • 00:00:57.110 --> 00:00:58.010
  • SADLY, IS "NO,"
  • 00:00:58.010 --> 00:00:59.200
  • BECAUSE RAVI ZACHARIAS
  • 00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:01.200
  • NEVER TOUCHES DOWN LONG
  • 00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:04.170
  • ENOUGH IN THE UNITED STATES
  • 00:01:04.170 --> 00:01:06.050
  • WHERE YOU CAN CAPTURE HIM
  • 00:01:06.050 --> 00:01:07.180
  • ON FILM UNTIL TODAY, SOMEHOW--
  • 00:01:09.070 --> 00:01:12.070
  • I'M NOT SURE-- WE GOT HIM INTO
  • 00:01:12.070 --> 00:01:13.160
  • THE STUDIO IN NEW YORK CITY.
  • 00:01:13.160 --> 00:01:16.000
  • RAVI ZACHARIAS, WELCOME.
  • 00:01:16.000 --> 00:01:18.050
  • - RAVI ZACHARIAS: THANK YOU,
  • 00:01:18.050 --> 00:01:18.260
  • SIR.
  • 00:01:18.260 --> 00:01:19.260
  • WHAT AN HONOR TO BE WITH YOU.
  • 00:01:19.260 --> 00:01:20.170
  • - ERIC: THIS IS LIKE SPOTTING
  • 00:01:20.170 --> 00:01:21.280
  • THE WHITE BUFFALO OR SOMETHING,
  • 00:01:21.280 --> 00:01:23.230
  • SOME RARE BEAST THAT IS NEVER
  • 00:01:23.230 --> 00:01:25.260
  • SEEN, FABLED BEAST, AND TO HAVE
  • 00:01:25.260 --> 00:01:27.140
  • YOU WITH ME IN THE STUDIO,
  • 00:01:27.140 --> 00:01:28.240
  • WE'VE TRIED SUCH A LONG TIME.
  • 00:01:28.240 --> 00:01:31.140
  • NOW, I KNOW, RAVI, THERE'S SO
  • 00:01:31.140 --> 00:01:32.130
  • MANY PEOPLE THAT THEY KNOW YOU,
  • 00:01:32.130 --> 00:01:34.290
  • BUT THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE
  • 00:01:34.290 --> 00:01:35.270
  • LISTENING RIGHT NOW, WHO ARE
  • 00:01:35.270 --> 00:01:36.280
  • SAYING, "WHO'S THIS GUY?"
  • 00:01:36.280 --> 00:01:39.120
  • AND I THOUGHT, "THAT'S PRECISELY
  • 00:01:39.120 --> 00:01:41.100
  • WHY I DO THE PROGRAM BECAUSE I
  • 00:01:41.100 --> 00:01:42.190
  • HAVE THE GREAT JOY AND HONOR OF
  • 00:01:42.190 --> 00:01:44.100
  • INTRODUCING FOLKS LIKE YOU TO
  • 00:01:44.100 --> 00:01:45.250
  • NEW PEOPLE.
  • 00:01:45.250 --> 00:01:48.090
  • SO I THINK OF YOU AS AN
  • 00:01:48.090 --> 00:01:50.120
  • APOLOGIST FOR THE CHRISTIAN
  • 00:01:50.120 --> 00:01:51.210
  • FAITH, PRINCIPALLY; AS AN AUTHOR
  • 00:01:51.210 --> 00:01:53.120
  • OF INNUMERABLE BOOKS.
  • 00:01:53.270 --> 00:01:56.270
  • YOU REALLY DO TRAVEL AROUND THE
  • 00:01:56.270 --> 00:01:58.010
  • WORLD INCESSANTLY.
  • 00:01:58.040 --> 00:02:01.060
  • I MEAN, YOU REALLY HAVE AN
  • 00:02:01.060 --> 00:02:02.100
  • INTERNATIONAL LIFE.
  • 00:02:02.100 --> 00:02:05.040
  • I MEAN, I'M NOT EXAGGERATING.
  • 00:02:05.150 --> 00:02:08.150
  • BUT THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE THAT
  • 00:02:08.150 --> 00:02:09.140
  • DON'T KNOW YOUR STORY, AND I
  • 00:02:09.140 --> 00:02:10.090
  • DON'T KNOW THAT I'VE EVER HEARD
  • 00:02:10.090 --> 00:02:11.130
  • YOU TELL YOUR STORY, SO I
  • 00:02:11.130 --> 00:02:12.130
  • THOUGHT, BEFORE WE TALK ABOUT
  • 00:02:12.130 --> 00:02:13.280
  • WHAT YOU'VE GOT HAPPENING NOW, I
  • 00:02:13.280 --> 00:02:15.200
  • WANTED TO INTRODUCE MY AUDIENCE
  • 00:02:15.200 --> 00:02:18.030
  • TO YOU, TO RAVI, THE MAN, AND TO
  • 00:02:18.030 --> 00:02:19.190
  • TELL YOUR STORY.
  • 00:02:19.190 --> 00:02:22.080
  • SO TELL US WHERE YOU GREW UP,
  • 00:02:22.080 --> 00:02:23.060
  • HOW IT WAS YOU CAME TO FAITH,
  • 00:02:23.060 --> 00:02:24.200
  • AND HOW IT WAS YOU CAME TO BE
  • 00:02:24.200 --> 00:02:25.260
  • WHAT WE CALL AN APOLOGIST FOR
  • 00:02:25.260 --> 00:02:27.200
  • - RAVI: FIRST OF ALL, THANKS
  • 00:02:30.290 --> 00:02:31.200
  • FOR HAVING ME, ERIC.
  • 00:02:31.200 --> 00:02:32.230
  • YOU KNOW, I LOVE YOUR WORK, LOVE
  • 00:02:32.230 --> 00:02:33.210
  • YOUR BOOKS, THOSE MASSIVE TOMES
  • 00:02:33.210 --> 00:02:35.090
  • THAT YOU PUT OUT THERE, WHICH
  • 00:02:35.090 --> 00:02:36.230
  • LINGER FOR A LONG WHILE FOR MANY
  • 00:02:36.230 --> 00:02:38.170
  • SO THANKS SO MUCH FOR WHAT
  • 00:02:41.050 --> 00:02:41.240
  • YOU'RE DOING.
  • 00:02:41.240 --> 00:02:42.230
  • YEAH, EVEN THOUGH THE LAST
  • 00:02:42.230 --> 00:02:44.040
  • SEVERAL DECADES HAVE BEEN IN THE
  • 00:02:44.040 --> 00:02:46.060
  • WEST, I WAS 20 YEARS OLD WHEN I
  • 00:02:46.060 --> 00:02:48.110
  • MOVED TO CANADA, BUT PRIOR TO
  • 00:02:48.110 --> 00:02:50.240
  • THAT, MY HOME WAS INDIA.
  • 00:02:50.240 --> 00:02:53.010
  • I'M AN INDIAN BY BIRTH, BORN IN
  • 00:02:53.010 --> 00:02:54.020
  • THE SOUTHERN CITY OF CHENNAI,
  • 00:02:54.020 --> 00:02:56.130
  • WHERE THE LANGUAGE IS TAMIL,
  • 00:02:56.130 --> 00:02:57.210
  • AND RAISED IN THE
  • 00:02:57.210 --> 00:02:58.160
  • NORTHERN CITY OF DELHI,
  • 00:02:58.160 --> 00:03:00.180
  • WHERE THE LANGUAGE IS HINDI.
  • 00:03:00.180 --> 00:03:01.180
  • INDIA HAS MANY MAJOR LANGUAGES.
  • 00:03:01.180 --> 00:03:02.270
  • WELL, MY DAD WAS FROM EVEN A
  • 00:03:02.270 --> 00:03:04.110
  • DIFFERENT STATE, KERALA, WHERE
  • 00:03:04.110 --> 00:03:06.000
  • THE LANGUAGE WAS MALAYALAM,
  • 00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:07.200
  • WHICH I NEVER GOT TO LEARN, BUT
  • 00:03:07.200 --> 00:03:08.180
  • TAMIL IS OKAY FOR ME.
  • 00:03:08.180 --> 00:03:10.040
  • HINDI, I'M QUITE FLUENT IN.
  • 00:03:10.040 --> 00:03:11.240
  • - ERIC: YOU SPEAK HINDUSTANI?
  • 00:03:11.240 --> 00:03:12.150
  • - RAVI: YES, SIR.
  • 00:03:12.150 --> 00:03:13.200
  • YEAH, HINDI IS THE SHORT FOR
  • 00:03:13.200 --> 00:03:15.070
  • THE HINDUSTANI.
  • 00:03:15.070 --> 00:03:17.010
  • YEAH, ACTUALLY, VERY COMFORTABLE
  • 00:03:17.010 --> 00:03:18.010
  • WITH THAT BECAUSE ALL OF MY
  • 00:03:18.010 --> 00:03:19.220
  • FRIENDS SPOKE HINDI, GROWING UP,
  • 00:03:19.220 --> 00:03:21.050
  • AND THE MOVIES, IF YOU SEE THE
  • 00:03:21.050 --> 00:03:22.150
  • MOVIES IN INDIA, WHICH IS THE
  • 00:03:22.150 --> 00:03:23.240
  • MAJOR AVENUE OF COMMUNICATION,
  • 00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:26.060
  • I WAS A MOVIEGOER
  • 00:03:26.060 --> 00:03:27.150
  • EVERY SATURDAY,
  • 00:03:27.150 --> 00:03:28.110
  • BUT THAT'S WHERE I GREW UP,
  • 00:03:28.110 --> 00:03:29.030
  • IN DELHI,
  • 00:03:29.030 --> 00:03:30.290
  • AND THE INTERESTING THING IS,
  • 00:03:30.290 --> 00:03:32.170
  • EVEN THOUGH WE WERE
  • 00:03:32.170 --> 00:03:33.120
  • NOMINALLY CHRISTIAN--
  • 00:03:33.120 --> 00:03:34.090
  • AND I MEAN THAT VERY
  • 00:03:34.090 --> 00:03:36.100
  • LITERALLY, IN NAME,
  • 00:03:36.100 --> 00:03:37.010
  • MEANING MORE WHAT WE ARE NOT.
  • 00:03:37.010 --> 00:03:39.000
  • WE WERE NOT HINDUS, WE WERE NOT
  • 00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:41.000
  • MUSLIMS, WE WERE NOT BUDDHISTS,
  • 00:03:41.000 --> 00:03:42.020
  • WE WERE NOT SIKHS,
  • 00:03:42.020 --> 00:03:43.100
  • SO WERE BRANDED
  • 00:03:43.100 --> 00:03:44.140
  • AS CHRISTIANS.
  • 00:03:44.140 --> 00:03:46.040
  • FIVE GENERATIONS ON ONE SIDE,
  • 00:03:46.040 --> 00:03:47.160
  • SEVEN GENERATIONS ON THE OTHER
  • 00:03:47.160 --> 00:03:49.110
  • SIDE, OUR ANCESTORS CAME TO
  • 00:03:49.110 --> 00:03:50.220
  • JESUS CHRIST, SO A
  • 00:03:50.220 --> 00:03:52.090
  • FASCINATING STORY,
  • 00:03:52.090 --> 00:03:53.270
  • BUT I DID NOT KNOW CHRIST
  • 00:03:53.270 --> 00:03:56.150
  • AT ALL.
  • 00:03:56.150 --> 00:03:57.030
  • I WENT TO CHURCH.
  • 00:03:57.030 --> 00:03:58.020
  • IT WAS A CULTURAL THING.
  • 00:03:58.020 --> 00:03:59.210
  • EVERY SUNDAY, EARLY MORNING,
  • 00:03:59.210 --> 00:04:02.000
  • A VERY BEAUTIFUL
  • 00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:04.110
  • ANGLICAN CHURCH,
  • 00:04:04.110 --> 00:04:06.200
  • BUT I CAN'T TELL YOU ONE SINGLE
  • 00:04:06.200 --> 00:04:07.140
  • SERMON I HEARD THERE BECAUSE MY
  • 00:04:07.140 --> 00:04:08.130
  • HEART WAS NOT IN IT,
  • 00:04:08.130 --> 00:04:09.270
  • MY MIND WAS NOT IN IT.
  • 00:04:09.270 --> 00:04:11.170
  • I WAS A LOVER OF CRICKET AND ALL
  • 00:04:11.170 --> 00:04:12.100
  • OF OUR CRICKET MATCHES WERE
  • 00:04:12.100 --> 00:04:13.280
  • PLAYED ON SUNDAYS.
  • 00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:15.090
  • - ERIC: I WAS GONNA ASK YOU,
  • 00:04:15.090 --> 00:04:16.250
  • WAS CRICKET A HINDU GOD?
  • 00:04:16.250 --> 00:04:17.240
  • NO, IT'S A SPORT.
  • 00:04:17.240 --> 00:04:19.010
  • [LAUGHTER]
  • 00:04:19.010 --> 00:04:20.090
  • WHAT DID YOU THINK YOU WANTED TO
  • 00:04:20.090 --> 00:04:21.040
  • DO WITH YOUR LIFE WHEN YOU WERE
  • 00:04:21.040 --> 00:04:23.020
  • A TEENAGER IN INDIA?
  • 00:04:23.020 --> 00:04:25.080
  • - RAVI: WHEN I WAS A TEENAGER
  • 00:04:25.080 --> 00:04:26.220
  • IN INDIA, SPORTS WAS EVERYTHING
  • 00:04:26.220 --> 00:04:28.120
  • TO ME, AND THAT'S WHAT BUILT A
  • 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:29.290
  • GREAT WALL BETWEEN MY FATHER AND
  • 00:04:29.290 --> 00:04:32.220
  • MYSELF BECAUSE THERE WAS NO
  • 00:04:32.220 --> 00:04:33.270
  • MONEY IN IT, YOU KNOW,
  • 00:04:33.270 --> 00:04:35.070
  • AS JUST A PROFESSION.
  • 00:04:35.070 --> 00:04:36.100
  • I WANTED TO PLAY CRICKET
  • 00:04:36.100 --> 00:04:38.040
  • FOR INDIA.
  • 00:04:38.040 --> 00:04:39.200
  • - ERIC: OH, I DIDN'T REALIZE,
  • 00:04:39.200 --> 00:04:40.180
  • WHEN YOU SAID YOU LOVED CRICKET,
  • 00:04:40.180 --> 00:04:41.100
  • YOU REALLY LOVED CRICKET.
  • 00:04:41.100 --> 00:04:42.040
  • - RAVI: I DID, AND, YOU KNOW,
  • 00:04:42.040 --> 00:04:43.230
  • INDIA IS ONE OF THE MAJOR
  • 00:04:43.230 --> 00:04:44.270
  • CRICKETING COUNTRIES, ENGLAND,
  • 00:04:44.270 --> 00:04:46.060
  • NEW ZEALAND, AUSTRALIA,
  • 00:04:46.060 --> 00:04:47.240
  • PAKISTAN, INDIA, SRI LANKA.
  • 00:04:47.240 --> 00:04:49.280
  • THEY WERE THE FIVE OR SIX MAJOR
  • 00:04:49.280 --> 00:04:51.080
  • COUNTRIES THAT PLAYED IT,
  • 00:04:51.080 --> 00:04:52.040
  • BUT THEY WERE
  • 00:04:52.040 --> 00:04:55.020
  • NOT PROFESSIONAL CRICKETERS.
  • 00:04:55.020 --> 00:04:55.260
  • THEY HAD TO BE WORKING
  • 00:04:55.260 --> 00:04:57.020
  • ELSEWHERE, AND THEN WHEN THE
  • 00:04:57.020 --> 00:04:57.270
  • SO-CALLED "TEST MATCHES" WERE
  • 00:04:57.270 --> 00:04:59.170
  • PLAYED BETWEEN TWO COUNTRIES,
  • 00:04:59.170 --> 00:05:01.090
  • WHICH WOULD HAPPEN ONCE A YEAR
  • 00:05:01.090 --> 00:05:02.280
  • OR ONCE EVERY TWO YEARS, THEY'D
  • 00:05:02.280 --> 00:05:04.110
  • COME OUT OF THEIR PROFESSIONS.
  • 00:05:04.110 --> 00:05:05.210
  • YOU COULD BE WORKING FOR THE
  • 00:05:05.210 --> 00:05:07.010
  • RAILWAYS; YOU COULD BE WORKING
  • 00:05:07.010 --> 00:05:08.010
  • AS A TEACHER SOMEWHERE.
  • 00:05:08.010 --> 00:05:09.140
  • SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT I WAS
  • 00:05:09.140 --> 00:05:10.280
  • REALLY THINKING.
  • 00:05:10.280 --> 00:05:12.110
  • IT WAS NOT GONNA BE A MEANS
  • 00:05:12.110 --> 00:05:13.170
  • OF SUPPORT.
  • 00:05:13.170 --> 00:05:14.180
  • - ERIC: YOU WERE THINKING
  • 00:05:14.180 --> 00:05:15.200
  • EXACTLY WHAT I WAS THINKING WHEN
  • 00:05:15.200 --> 00:05:16.190
  • I TOLD MY PARENTS I WANTED TO BE
  • 00:05:16.190 --> 00:05:17.180
  • A WRITER.
  • 00:05:17.180 --> 00:05:18.220
  • [LAUGHTER]
  • 00:05:18.220 --> 00:05:20.090
  • YOU KNOW, IT'S LIKE, "OKAY, AND
  • 00:05:20.090 --> 00:05:21.010
  • WHAT'RE YOU GONNA DO TO PAY
  • 00:05:21.010 --> 00:05:21.210
  • THE RENT?"
  • 00:05:21.210 --> 00:05:22.050
  • "WELL, I DON'T KNOW."
  • 00:05:22.050 --> 00:05:24.150
  • - RAVI: THAT'S IT.
  • 00:05:24.150 --> 00:05:25.130
  • BUT MY DAD, THAT BUILT
  • 00:05:25.130 --> 00:05:27.110
  • A TENSION BETWEEN HIM AND ME,
  • 00:05:27.110 --> 00:05:29.270
  • AND THEN WHAT ACTUALLY
  • 00:05:29.270 --> 00:05:31.160
  • HAPPENED, ERIC, IN THE MOST
  • 00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:33.130
  • SERIOUS, SERIOUS-MOST STAGE OF
  • 00:05:33.130 --> 00:05:34.210
  • MY LIFE, YOU KNOW, I'VE ALWAYS
  • 00:05:34.210 --> 00:05:35.130
  • BEEN A PURSUER OF MEANING.
  • 00:05:37.220 --> 00:05:40.220
  • I DON'T JUST DO THINGS.
  • 00:05:40.220 --> 00:05:42.200
  • I DON'T JUST WRITE FOR THE SAKE
  • 00:05:42.200 --> 00:05:43.120
  • OF WRITING.
  • 00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:45.040
  • WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF
  • 00:05:45.040 --> 00:05:45.210
  • AM I CONTRIBUTING ANYTHING NEW
  • 00:05:48.170 --> 00:05:49.080
  • IN WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE?
  • 00:05:49.080 --> 00:05:49.270
  • WHY AM I SPEAKING ON THIS
  • 00:05:49.270 --> 00:05:51.060
  • SUBJECT?
  • 00:05:51.060 --> 00:05:53.030
  • YOU KNOW, WHAT IS MARRIAGE GOING
  • 00:05:53.030 --> 00:05:53.270
  • TO MEAN?
  • 00:05:53.270 --> 00:05:55.270
  • WHAT IS THIS AFTERNOON WITH MY
  • 00:05:55.270 --> 00:05:57.050
  • SO THE FACT IS, I WAS LOOKING
  • 00:06:01.290 --> 00:06:03.090
  • FOR TINY LITTLE MEANINGS, BUT I
  • 00:06:03.090 --> 00:06:04.030
  • HAD NO ULTIMATE MEANING.
  • 00:06:04.030 --> 00:06:06.000
  • WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT HINDUISM AND
  • 00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:07.150
  • THE PANTHEISTIC WORLDVIEWS, THEY
  • 00:06:07.150 --> 00:06:09.040
  • DON'T TALK ABOUT MEANING.
  • 00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:10.070
  • IT'S ALL A CYCLICAL THING,
  • 00:06:10.070 --> 00:06:11.280
  • "YEAH, EVERY BIRTH IS A REBIRTH,
  • 00:06:11.280 --> 00:06:13.100
  • AND THE REPETITIVE NATURE OF
  • 00:06:13.100 --> 00:06:15.010
  • LIFE,"
  • 00:06:15.010 --> 00:06:15.200
  • SO AT THE AGE OF 17,
  • 00:06:15.200 --> 00:06:16.260
  • I ENDED UP ON A BED
  • 00:06:16.260 --> 00:06:18.200
  • OF SUICIDE IN DELHI,
  • 00:06:18.200 --> 00:06:20.260
  • AND THAT, TO ME,
  • 00:06:20.260 --> 00:06:23.000
  • TILL THIS DAY
  • 00:06:23.000 --> 00:06:24.060
  • IS A VERY EMOTIONAL THING.
  • 00:06:24.060 --> 00:06:26.040
  • I HARDLY EVER TALK ABOUT.
  • 00:06:26.040 --> 00:06:28.110
  • - ERIC: I HAVE TO ASK YOU,
  • 00:06:28.110 --> 00:06:29.010
  • WHEN YOU SAY YOU FOUND
  • 00:06:29.010 --> 00:06:29.290
  • YOURSELF ON "A BED OF SUICIDE,"
  • 00:06:29.290 --> 00:06:31.110
  • I'M NOT CLEAR ON
  • 00:06:31.110 --> 00:06:31.290
  • WHAT HAPPENED.
  • 00:06:31.290 --> 00:06:33.190
  • HAD YOU ATTEMPTED TO KILL
  • 00:06:33.190 --> 00:06:34.080
  • YOURSELF--
  • 00:06:34.080 --> 00:06:35.020
  • - RAVI: YES, SIR, YES, INDEED.
  • 00:06:35.020 --> 00:06:36.170
  • - ERIC: -- AND THEN YOU FOUND
  • 00:06:36.170 --> 00:06:37.080
  • YOURSELF IN A HOSPITAL,
  • 00:06:37.080 --> 00:06:37.260
  • HAVING SURVIVED?
  • 00:06:37.260 --> 00:06:38.100
  • - RAVI: THAT IS CORRECT,
  • 00:06:38.100 --> 00:06:39.020
  • BUT HANGING ON BY A THREAD.
  • 00:06:39.020 --> 00:06:40.160
  • I HAD TAKEN POISON THAT I HAD
  • 00:06:41.060 --> 00:06:44.060
  • BROUGHT WITH ME AND MIXED IT
  • 00:06:44.060 --> 00:06:46.080
  • WITH A GLASS OF WATER, SOME
  • 00:06:46.080 --> 00:06:48.020
  • CHEMICALS THAT WERE MARKED
  • 00:06:48.020 --> 00:06:50.030
  • "POISON" IN THE SCIENCE LAB,
  • 00:06:50.030 --> 00:06:51.200
  • AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S STILL A VERY
  • 00:06:51.270 --> 00:06:54.270
  • PAINFUL THING TO TALK ABOUT, BUT
  • 00:06:54.270 --> 00:06:56.020
  • THAT'S WHAT IT WAS.
  • 00:06:56.020 --> 00:06:56.190
  • - ERIC: BUT CAN I ASK YOU, WHAT
  • 00:06:56.190 --> 00:06:57.110
  • LED YOU?
  • 00:06:57.110 --> 00:06:59.040
  • THAT'S A VERY DRAMATIC THING FOR
  • 00:06:59.040 --> 00:07:00.040
  • A 17-YEAR-OLD TO TRY SO
  • 00:07:00.040 --> 00:07:03.020
  • SERIOUSLY TO TAKE HIS LIFE.
  • 00:07:03.020 --> 00:07:04.110
  • CAN YOU SAY WHAT LED YOU
  • 00:07:04.110 --> 00:07:05.050
  • TO THIS?
  • 00:07:05.050 --> 00:07:07.050
  • - RAVI: IN INDIA, IT'S NOT THAT
  • 00:07:07.050 --> 00:07:07.270
  • UNCOMMON, AND ESPECIALLY DURING
  • 00:07:07.270 --> 00:07:09.160
  • EXAMINATION TIME.
  • 00:07:09.160 --> 00:07:11.260
  • I COULD NAME TWO OR THREE
  • 00:07:11.260 --> 00:07:12.270
  • CLASSMATES OF MINE WHO MORE
  • 00:07:12.270 --> 00:07:15.020
  • MERCILESSLY ENDED THEIR LIVES.
  • 00:07:15.020 --> 00:07:17.120
  • ONE OF MY CLOSEST FRIENDS, YOU
  • 00:07:17.120 --> 00:07:19.030
  • KNOW, DUMPED KEROSENE ON
  • 00:07:19.030 --> 00:07:21.020
  • HIMSELF, SET HIMSELF ABLAZE.
  • 00:07:21.020 --> 00:07:21.250
  • HIS FATHER HAD A BIG
  • 00:07:21.250 --> 00:07:22.150
  • BUSINESS THERE.
  • 00:07:22.240 --> 00:07:25.240
  • IT'S A CULTURE OF HONOR
  • 00:07:25.240 --> 00:07:27.170
  • AND SHAME.
  • 00:07:27.170 --> 00:07:29.150
  • IT'S NOT EXAGGERATED.
  • 00:07:29.150 --> 00:07:31.050
  • INDIA IS A CULTURE OF STUDY.
  • 00:07:31.050 --> 00:07:33.130
  • STUDY IS THE NUMBER ONE THING.
  • 00:07:33.130 --> 00:07:35.110
  • THAT'S WHY, EVEN WHEN THEY GO
  • 00:07:35.110 --> 00:07:36.200
  • ABROAD, THEY DO SO WELL.
  • 00:07:36.200 --> 00:07:37.230
  • THEY WILL JUST POUR THEMSELVES
  • 00:07:37.230 --> 00:07:40.180
  • INTO THE BOOKS.
  • 00:07:40.180 --> 00:07:41.110
  • THEY WILL MEMORIZE.
  • 00:07:41.110 --> 00:07:42.200
  • THEY ARE MATHEMATICIANS TO THE
  • 00:07:42.200 --> 00:07:44.080
  • CORE, SCIENTISTS, COMPUTER
  • 00:07:44.080 --> 00:07:46.030
  • ENGINEERS, AND THE
  • 00:07:46.030 --> 00:07:46.210
  • COMPETITIVENESS IS VERY REAL OUT
  • 00:07:46.210 --> 00:07:49.090
  • THERE, AND I JUST HADN'T HAD THE
  • 00:07:49.090 --> 00:07:51.210
  • DISCIPLINE TO DO IT, MY CLASS--
  • 00:07:51.210 --> 00:07:52.260
  • MY FRIENDS DID.
  • 00:07:52.260 --> 00:07:54.240
  • I WAS LOOKING TO THE CRICKET
  • 00:07:54.240 --> 00:07:56.190
  • PITCH EVERY DAY, BUT THAT
  • 00:07:56.190 --> 00:07:59.110
  • ATTEMPT TO POISON MYSELF FAILED,
  • 00:08:00.040 --> 00:08:03.040
  • AND I'VE OFTEN SAID, WHEN I USED
  • 00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:04.240
  • TO TELL MY STORY, THE CONCOCTION
  • 00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:07.040
  • THAT I MADE AND TOOK INTO MY
  • 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:08.210
  • SYSTEM TURNED OUT, I SAID,
  • 00:08:08.210 --> 00:08:10.110
  • UNFORTUNATELY, TURNED OUT TO BE
  • 00:08:10.110 --> 00:08:11.270
  • VERY SALTY, AND MY BODY STARTED
  • 00:08:11.270 --> 00:08:14.020
  • TO REJECT IT, AND I REMEMBER A
  • 00:08:14.020 --> 00:08:15.210
  • DOCTOR SAYING TO ME IN THE
  • 00:08:15.210 --> 00:08:17.000
  • AUDIENCE, "DON'T SAY,
  • 00:08:17.000 --> 00:08:18.030
  • 'UNFORTUNATELY.'
  • 00:08:18.030 --> 00:08:18.270
  • IT IS THAT SALTINESS THAT
  • 00:08:18.270 --> 00:08:20.180
  • CAUSED THE BODY TO REJECT
  • 00:08:20.180 --> 00:08:22.140
  • WHAT YOU PUT IN THERE,
  • 00:08:22.140 --> 00:08:24.040
  • AND AS THE MOISTURE WAS BEING
  • 00:08:24.040 --> 00:08:25.250
  • THROWN OUT, SO WAS THE POISON."
  • 00:08:25.250 --> 00:08:28.100
  • AND I WAS IN THE HOSPITAL FOR
  • 00:08:28.100 --> 00:08:29.030
  • FIVE DAYS BEFORE I WAS RELEASED,
  • 00:08:29.030 --> 00:08:30.220
  • AND IT DID A LOT OF
  • 00:08:30.220 --> 00:08:33.030
  • GASTRONOMICAL DAMAGE.
  • 00:08:33.030 --> 00:08:35.190
  • THEY BRANDED IT AS A
  • 00:08:35.190 --> 00:08:37.250
  • GASTROENTEROLOGY MISHAP,
  • 00:08:38.020 --> 00:08:41.020
  • SOMETHING LIKE THAT, BUT THAT'S
  • 00:08:41.020 --> 00:08:43.090
  • WHAT IT DID, SOME DAMAGE TO ME
  • 00:08:43.090 --> 00:08:44.160
  • THEN, BUT THAT'S THE VALLEY THAT
  • 00:08:44.160 --> 00:08:46.250
  • GOD BROUGHT ME THROUGH.
  • 00:08:46.250 --> 00:08:49.060
  • - ERIC: WHAT HAPPENS AT
  • 00:08:49.060 --> 00:08:50.200
  • THIS POINT?
  • 00:08:50.200 --> 00:08:51.060
  • YOU ARE 17 YEARS OLD.
  • 00:08:51.060 --> 00:08:52.070
  • I'M SURE YOUR FAMILY
  • 00:08:52.070 --> 00:08:53.040
  • IS HORRIFIED.
  • 00:08:53.040 --> 00:08:55.030
  • AND YOU SAID SOMEONE CAME TO YOU
  • 00:08:55.030 --> 00:08:56.090
  • ON THE HOSPITAL BED WHO
  • 00:08:56.090 --> 00:08:58.130
  • WAS A CHRISTIAN.
  • 00:08:58.130 --> 00:09:00.190
  • - RAVI: YEAH, AND I THINK IT'S
  • 00:09:00.190 --> 00:09:02.040
  • IMPORTANT FOR THE LISTENER TO
  • 00:09:02.040 --> 00:09:03.220
  • KNOW, YOU KNOW, OFTENTIMES THERE
  • 00:09:03.220 --> 00:09:04.250
  • ARE DIFFERENT REASONS FOR ONE
  • 00:09:04.250 --> 00:09:05.260
  • WHO WOULD GO THROUGH THAT
  • 00:09:05.260 --> 00:09:07.140
  • DARK STAGE.
  • 00:09:07.140 --> 00:09:08.080
  • SOMETIMES THERE ARE DEFINITELY
  • 00:09:08.080 --> 00:09:10.080
  • SOME PSYCHOLOGICAL,
  • 00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:11.230
  • NEUROCHEMICAL ISSUES AT WORK,
  • 00:09:11.230 --> 00:09:13.210
  • AND SO ON.
  • 00:09:13.210 --> 00:09:14.190
  • IT WAS NONE OF THAT FOR ME.
  • 00:09:14.190 --> 00:09:17.000
  • FOR ME, IT WAS THE PURSUIT OF
  • 00:09:17.000 --> 00:09:18.200
  • MEANING AND STRUGGLING TO BE
  • 00:09:18.200 --> 00:09:20.170
  • ACCEPTED BY A VERY DISCIPLINED
  • 00:09:20.170 --> 00:09:23.170
  • DAD AND A DAD WHO WAS TOUGH ON
  • 00:09:23.170 --> 00:09:25.240
  • WANTED TO, SORT OF, SHAME ME
  • 00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:32.020
  • INTO REALITY.
  • 00:09:32.020 --> 00:09:33.230
  • I'M SURE THAT'S WHAT HE MEANT.
  • 00:09:33.230 --> 00:09:34.140
  • BUT WHEN I WENT THROUGH THAT
  • 00:09:34.140 --> 00:09:35.140
  • DARK STAGE, THIS GENTLEMAN WHOM
  • 00:09:35.140 --> 00:09:37.200
  • MET ONCE, WORKED FOR YOUTH FOR
  • 00:09:40.230 --> 00:09:41.290
  • CHRIST, BUT I WAS NOT IN THE
  • 00:09:41.290 --> 00:09:44.190
  • CLEAREST STATE OF MIND,
  • 00:09:44.190 --> 00:09:45.140
  • YOU KNOW,
  • 00:09:45.140 --> 00:09:46.220
  • LYING IN THAT BED AND
  • 00:09:46.220 --> 00:09:47.180
  • DEHYDRATED, WHICH MEANT I
  • 00:09:47.180 --> 00:09:48.130
  • COULDN'T USE MY LIMBS,
  • 00:09:48.130 --> 00:09:50.060
  • I COULDN'T LIFT MY HAND,
  • 00:09:50.060 --> 00:09:51.070
  • AND HE CAME INTO THE
  • 00:09:51.070 --> 00:09:52.130
  • ROOM WITH A BIBLE IN HIS HAND
  • 00:09:52.140 --> 00:09:55.140
  • AND WANTED TO READ IT TO ME,
  • 00:09:55.140 --> 00:09:56.080
  • AND MY MOTHER WAS SORT
  • 00:09:56.080 --> 00:09:56.250
  • OF SURPRISED, SAYING,
  • 00:09:56.250 --> 00:09:58.030
  • "HOW DID YOU EVEN GET IN HERE?
  • 00:09:58.030 --> 00:10:00.030
  • HE'S IN INTENSIVE CARE."
  • 00:10:00.030 --> 00:10:00.210
  • HE SAID, "WELL, I'M A MINISTER,"
  • 00:10:00.210 --> 00:10:01.170
  • AND SO ON, BUT SHE WOULDN'T LET
  • 00:10:01.200 --> 00:10:04.200
  • HIM STAY, SO HE OPENED IT TO THE
  • 00:10:04.200 --> 00:10:07.200
  • GOSPEL OF JOHN, JOHN CHAPTER 14,
  • 00:10:08.070 --> 00:10:11.070
  • AND HAD MY MOTHER READ IT TO ME.
  • 00:10:11.070 --> 00:10:12.270
  • MY MOTHER WAS A TEACHER, BUT
  • 00:10:12.270 --> 00:10:14.100
  • ENGLISH WAS NOT HER FIRST
  • 00:10:14.100 --> 00:10:15.250
  • LANGUAGE, A VERY HEAVY ACCENT IN
  • 00:10:15.250 --> 00:10:17.090
  • ENGLISH, AND HERE WAS A
  • 00:10:17.090 --> 00:10:19.220
  • KING JAMES VERSION.
  • 00:10:19.220 --> 00:10:21.140
  • SHE'S HOLDING IT IN HER HAND,
  • 00:10:21.140 --> 00:10:23.040
  • READING IT, AND I'M HAVING A
  • 00:10:23.040 --> 00:10:24.120
  • HARD TIME TRACKING WHAT SHE'S
  • 00:10:24.120 --> 00:10:25.220
  • SAYING, BUT, YOU KNOW, THE
  • 00:10:25.220 --> 00:10:27.050
  • AMAZING THING, TO ME, AGAIN,
  • 00:10:27.050 --> 00:10:28.080
  • HOW GOD ORCHESTRATED THIS ALL.
  • 00:10:28.160 --> 00:10:31.160
  • THAT CONVERSATION IN JOHN 14 IS
  • 00:10:31.160 --> 00:10:32.230
  • WITH THOMAS, AND THOMAS IS THE
  • 00:10:32.230 --> 00:10:34.290
  • ONE WHO WAS THE FIRST ONE TO
  • 00:10:34.290 --> 00:10:36.210
  • BRING THE GOSPEL TO INDIA AND
  • 00:10:36.210 --> 00:10:38.230
  • PAID WITH HIS LIFE, AND SO THE
  • 00:10:38.230 --> 00:10:40.240
  • EXCLUSIVITY PASSAGE IS THERE,
  • 00:10:40.240 --> 00:10:43.080
  • "I'M THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND
  • 00:10:43.080 --> 00:10:44.080
  • THE LIFE.
  • 00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:45.030
  • NO ONE COMES UNTO THE FATHER BUT
  • 00:10:45.030 --> 00:10:46.070
  • BY ME."
  • 00:10:46.070 --> 00:10:47.020
  • BUT I WAS GOING PAST ALL
  • 00:10:47.020 --> 00:10:48.060
  • OF THAT UNTIL, IN VERSE 19,
  • 00:10:48.060 --> 00:10:49.240
  • ERIC, IT'S LIKE A BOLT OF
  • 00:10:49.240 --> 00:10:51.060
  • LIGHTNING IN A MOMENT OF PITCH
  • 00:10:51.060 --> 00:10:53.000
  • BLACKNESS: "BECAUSE I LIVE, YOU
  • 00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:55.250
  • ALSO SHALL LIVE."
  • 00:10:56.140 --> 00:10:59.140
  • "BECAUSE I LIVE,
  • 00:10:59.140 --> 00:11:00.190
  • YOU ALSO SHALL LIVE."
  • 00:11:00.190 --> 00:11:02.180
  • AND WITH NOBODY EXPLAINING
  • 00:11:02.180 --> 00:11:03.290
  • IT TO ME,
  • 00:11:03.290 --> 00:11:05.060
  • IT HAD TO BE THE HOLY SPIRIT OF
  • 00:11:05.060 --> 00:11:06.030
  • GOD BECAUSE I WAS GREEN AS FAR
  • 00:11:06.030 --> 00:11:07.250
  • AS THE SCRIPTURES
  • 00:11:07.250 --> 00:11:08.160
  • WERE CONCERNED.
  • 00:11:08.160 --> 00:11:09.140
  • NEVER OPENED A BIBLE IN MY LIFE
  • 00:11:09.140 --> 00:11:10.200
  • BEFORE, AND JUST THINKING TO
  • 00:11:10.200 --> 00:11:13.100
  • MYSELF, "WHATEVER THIS 'LIVE' IS
  • 00:11:13.100 --> 00:11:15.210
  • ABOUT IS NOT WHAT MY LIFE WAS
  • 00:11:15.210 --> 00:11:17.090
  • ABOUT."
  • 00:11:17.090 --> 00:11:19.120
  • AND SO IT'S JESUS, OF COURSE,
  • 00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:20.230
  • TALKING, AND I SAID,
  • 00:11:20.230 --> 00:11:23.040
  • "JESUS, IF YOU ARE WHO YOU CLAIM
  • 00:11:23.040 --> 00:11:24.170
  • TO BE HERE, I WANT THAT LIFE
  • 00:11:24.170 --> 00:11:27.120
  • THAT I DO NOT HAVE IF THIS IS
  • 00:11:27.120 --> 00:11:30.040
  • THE LIFE YOU OFFER TO ME, AND I
  • 00:11:30.040 --> 00:11:31.270
  • PROMISE, IF YOU WILL TAKE ME OUT
  • 00:11:32.090 --> 00:11:35.090
  • OF THIS HOSPITAL BED, I WILL
  • 00:11:35.090 --> 00:11:37.020
  • LEAVE NO STONE UNTURNED IN MY
  • 00:11:37.020 --> 00:11:38.250
  • PURSUIT OF TRUTH."
  • 00:11:38.250 --> 00:11:41.020
  • THAT WAS THE LINE,
  • 00:11:41.020 --> 00:11:42.030
  • "I WILL LEAVE NO STONE
  • 00:11:42.030 --> 00:11:43.040
  • UNTURNED IN THE PURSUIT
  • 00:11:43.040 --> 00:11:43.280
  • OF TRUTH."
  • 00:11:43.280 --> 00:11:45.040
  • - ERIC: THAT'S PRETTY INTENSE
  • 00:11:45.040 --> 00:11:45.250
  • FOR A 17-YEAR-OLD.
  • 00:11:45.250 --> 00:11:46.120
  • - RAVI: VERY INTENSE, BUT
  • 00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:47.010
  • THAT'S THE WAY I WAS--
  • 00:11:47.010 --> 00:11:48.160
  • I'M STILL A
  • 00:11:48.160 --> 00:11:50.240
  • LOVER OF WORDS.
  • 00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:51.270
  • I'M A LOVER OF ARTICULATING
  • 00:11:51.270 --> 00:11:54.040
  • SOMETHING WITH PRECISION.
  • 00:11:54.040 --> 00:11:55.150
  • - ERIC: SO WHAT HAPPENS
  • 00:11:55.150 --> 00:11:56.180
  • FOLLOWING THAT?
  • 00:11:56.180 --> 00:11:57.170
  • SO YOU DON'T BECOME A CHRISTIAN
  • 00:11:57.170 --> 00:11:58.280
  • ON THE HOSPITAL BED AS A RESULT
  • 00:11:58.280 --> 00:12:01.100
  • OF YOUR MOTHER READING THIS TO
  • 00:12:01.100 --> 00:12:02.120
  • YOU, OR WOULD YOU SAY YOUR FAITH
  • 00:12:02.120 --> 00:12:04.020
  • BEGAN THERE?
  • 00:12:04.020 --> 00:12:04.270
  • - RAVI: I WOULD SAY MY FAITH
  • 00:12:04.270 --> 00:12:06.040
  • BEGAN THERE, BUT IT MATURED A
  • 00:12:06.040 --> 00:12:08.040
  • LOT OVER THE NEXT TWO TO THREE
  • 00:12:08.040 --> 00:12:10.040
  • YEARS THROUGH THE MINISTRY OF
  • 00:12:10.040 --> 00:12:11.070
  • YOUTH FOR CHRIST.
  • 00:12:11.070 --> 00:12:13.190
  • I KNEW WHAT I HAD DONE.
  • 00:12:13.190 --> 00:12:14.200
  • I DIDN'T KNOW THE DEPTH OF WHAT
  • 00:12:14.200 --> 00:12:15.120
  • IT ALL MEANT.
  • 00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:17.030
  • I TRIED TO GO TO A CHURCH THE
  • 00:12:17.030 --> 00:12:18.130
  • NEXT SUNDAY.
  • 00:12:18.130 --> 00:12:20.230
  • WELL, NO, MAYBE A COUPLE OF
  • 00:12:20.230 --> 00:12:22.150
  • SUNDAYS AFTER THAT.
  • 00:12:22.150 --> 00:12:23.120
  • I WALKED INTO A MAINLINE
  • 00:12:23.120 --> 00:12:24.150
  • CHURCH THERE.
  • 00:12:24.150 --> 00:12:25.210
  • I DIDN'T KNOW THERE WERE SUCH
  • 00:12:25.210 --> 00:12:26.280
  • THINGS AS LIBERAL PREACHERS AND
  • 00:12:26.280 --> 00:12:28.060
  • CONSERVATIVE PREACHERS, AND WHEN
  • 00:12:28.060 --> 00:12:30.020
  • I WENT AND TOLD THE VICAR THERE
  • 00:12:30.020 --> 00:12:32.040
  • WHAT I HAD DONE, THE MINISTER
  • 00:12:32.040 --> 00:12:33.160
  • THERE WHAT I HAD DONE, HE JUST
  • 00:12:33.160 --> 00:12:35.180
  • STARED AT ME.
  • 00:12:35.180 --> 00:12:36.210
  • HE SAID, "YOU KNOW, THIS IS SOME
  • 00:12:36.210 --> 00:12:38.070
  • KIND OF MELODRAMATIC THING,"
  • 00:12:38.070 --> 00:12:40.040
  • HE SAID,
  • 00:12:40.040 --> 00:12:41.120
  • "LIKE SITTING AT THE FOOT
  • 00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:42.140
  • OF THE MOUNTAIN, STARING AT
  • 00:12:42.140 --> 00:12:43.110
  • YOURSELF," OR SOMETHING.
  • 00:12:43.110 --> 00:12:44.190
  • THAT IS WHAT HE SAID.
  • 00:12:44.190 --> 00:12:45.120
  • HE SAID, "YOU'LL GET OVER IT."
  • 00:12:45.120 --> 00:12:46.260
  • AND I SAID, "BUT I DON'T
  • 00:12:46.260 --> 00:12:48.210
  • WANT TO."
  • 00:12:48.210 --> 00:12:50.130
  • I SAID, "WHAT I HAVE JUST
  • 00:12:50.130 --> 00:12:51.160
  • FOUND IS WHAT I NEEDED."
  • 00:12:51.160 --> 00:12:52.290
  • SO THEN, A LITTLE LATER, AN
  • 00:12:52.290 --> 00:12:55.090
  • AMERICAN PREACHER CAME THERE AND
  • 00:12:55.090 --> 00:12:57.050
  • BECAME-- HIS NAME WAS
  • 00:12:57.050 --> 00:12:58.290
  • ERNEST FRITCHLEY.
  • 00:12:58.290 --> 00:13:01.080
  • HE PASSED AWAY LAST YEAR.
  • 00:13:01.080 --> 00:13:03.170
  • I STILL STAY IN TOUCH WITH HIS
  • 00:13:03.170 --> 00:13:04.080
  • DAUGHTER, NOW WHO LIVES
  • 00:13:04.080 --> 00:13:05.050
  • IN MINNESOTA.
  • 00:13:05.050 --> 00:13:06.260
  • WHEN I STARTED HEARING HIM
  • 00:13:06.260 --> 00:13:08.060
  • PREACH THE GOSPEL, I SAID,
  • 00:13:08.060 --> 00:13:09.100
  • "THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT
  • 00:13:09.100 --> 00:13:10.040
  • I HAVE DONE,
  • 00:13:10.040 --> 00:13:12.200
  • WHAT I NEEDED."
  • 00:13:12.200 --> 00:13:13.230
  • SO I ATTENDED A BIBLE STUDY
  • 00:13:13.230 --> 00:13:14.290
  • WITH YOUTH FOR CHRIST EVERY
  • 00:13:14.290 --> 00:13:16.190
  • MONDAY NIGHT, AND BELIEVE IT
  • 00:13:16.190 --> 00:13:18.230
  • OR NOT, WITHIN ABOUT SIX MONTHS,
  • 00:13:18.230 --> 00:13:20.000
  • I WAS TEACHING THAT
  • 00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:21.000
  • BIBLE STUDY FROM THE BOOK OF
  • 00:13:21.000 --> 00:13:22.220
  • ROMANS BECAUSE MY CLOSEST
  • 00:13:22.220 --> 00:13:24.110
  • FRIEND, WHO LATER ON BECAME MY
  • 00:13:24.110 --> 00:13:25.250
  • BROTHER-IN-LAW,
  • 00:13:25.250 --> 00:13:26.260
  • A HINDU BRAHMAN--
  • 00:13:26.260 --> 00:13:28.040
  • WAS ABLE TO BRING HIM
  • 00:13:28.040 --> 00:13:29.040
  • TO THE LORD-- WE WERE WALKING
  • 00:13:29.040 --> 00:13:30.240
  • OUTSIDE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD.
  • 00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:31.290
  • OKAY, IT'S 204 FLATS THERE,
  • 00:13:31.290 --> 00:13:33.200
  • SURROUNDING A FIELD WHERE WE
  • 00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:35.220
  • USED TO PLAY CRICKET, SO WE'RE
  • 00:13:35.220 --> 00:13:36.270
  • WALKING PAST A GARBAGE DUMP, AND
  • 00:13:36.270 --> 00:13:38.250
  • AT THE TOP OF THE GARBAGE HEAP,
  • 00:13:39.120 --> 00:13:42.120
  • WE SEE A BOOK, AND WE LEAN OVER,
  • 00:13:42.120 --> 00:13:44.080
  • AND IT SAYS, "A COMMENTARY TO
  • 00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:46.090
  • THE EPISTLE OF ROMANS, BY
  • 00:13:46.090 --> 00:13:47.290
  • ST. PAUL,"
  • 00:13:47.290 --> 00:13:49.250
  • BY W.H. GRIFFITH THOMAS,
  • 00:13:49.250 --> 00:13:52.000
  • THAT INCREDIBLE WRITER.
  • 00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:54.280
  • NOW, TILL THIS DAY, I DON'T KNOW
  • 00:13:54.280 --> 00:13:56.040
  • WHO THREW IT THERE BECAUSE I
  • 00:13:56.040 --> 00:13:58.010
  • DON'T KNOW IF THERE WAS A SINGLE
  • 00:13:58.010 --> 00:13:59.010
  • CHRISTIAN IN THE COMMUNITY.
  • 00:13:59.010 --> 00:14:00.120
  • I ACTUALLY GUESS SOME MISSIONARY
  • 00:14:00.130 --> 00:14:03.130
  • HAD GIVEN IT TO MY DAD, AND HE'S
  • 00:14:03.130 --> 00:14:05.200
  • THE ONE THAT MAY HAVE PITCHED IT
  • 00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:07.010
  • WITHOUT KNOWING WHAT HE WAS
  • 00:14:07.010 --> 00:14:08.040
  • THROWING AWAY.
  • 00:14:08.040 --> 00:14:09.090
  • I STILL HAVE THAT, BY THE WAY.
  • 00:14:09.090 --> 00:14:10.030
  • I STILL HAVE THAT VOLUME.
  • 00:14:10.030 --> 00:14:11.140
  • I HAVE IT RIGHT ON MY DESK.
  • 00:14:11.140 --> 00:14:12.250
  • - ERIC: YOU HAVEN'T PITCHED IT?
  • 00:14:12.250 --> 00:14:13.200
  • - RAVI: NO, I HAVEN'T
  • 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:14.150
  • PITCHED IT.
  • 00:14:14.150 --> 00:14:15.000
  • A LOT OF GOLD NUGGETS IN THERE.
  • 00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:17.130
  • SO WE STARTED TEACHING THE BOOK
  • 00:14:17.130 --> 00:14:19.040
  • OF ROMANS AND, YOU KNOW, THE
  • 00:14:19.040 --> 00:14:20.110
  • WHOLE IDEA OF JUSTIFICATION BY
  • 00:14:20.110 --> 00:14:21.200
  • FAITH AND THE GRACE--
  • 00:14:21.200 --> 00:14:23.170
  • BRAND-NEW BELIEVERS.
  • 00:14:23.170 --> 00:14:25.230
  • YOU KNOW, WE'D JUST COME TO KNOW
  • 00:14:25.230 --> 00:14:26.240
  • THE LORD, AND VERSE BY VERSE, MY
  • 00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:28.120
  • BROTHER-IN-LAW AND I--
  • 00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:29.160
  • HE'S NOW IN THE MINISTRY.
  • 00:14:29.160 --> 00:14:30.130
  • HE WAS A NUCLEAR PHYSICIST
  • 00:14:30.130 --> 00:14:31.240
  • BY TRAINING.
  • 00:14:31.240 --> 00:14:33.000
  • WENT TO MIT, AND THEN LATER IN
  • 00:14:33.000 --> 00:14:35.130
  • LIFE, HE GAVE HIS LIFE TO THE
  • 00:14:35.130 --> 00:14:36.240
  • LORD IN MINISTRY TOO.
  • 00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:38.120
  • HE'S MARRIED TO MY SISTER.
  • 00:14:38.120 --> 00:14:39.200
  • HE NOW HAS JUST RETIRED FROM
  • 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:41.190
  • BEING A PASTOR FOR 30-SOMETHIN'
  • 00:14:41.190 --> 00:14:42.270
  • YEARS, AND HE WROTE
  • 00:14:42.270 --> 00:14:44.050
  • TO ME IN MAY.
  • 00:14:44.050 --> 00:14:46.030
  • HE SAID, "DO YOU REMEMBER
  • 00:14:46.030 --> 00:14:47.070
  • THIS DAY?
  • 00:14:47.070 --> 00:14:48.270
  • THIS IS WHEN WE WALKED FORWARD
  • 00:14:48.270 --> 00:14:50.200
  • TOGETHER TO TOTALLY COMMIT OUR
  • 00:14:50.200 --> 00:14:52.230
  • LIVES TO JESUS CHRIST AT A HILL
  • 00:14:52.230 --> 00:14:55.190
  • STATION OF MISSOURI FOR A YFC
  • 00:14:55.190 --> 00:14:56.110
  • SUMMER CAMP,
  • 00:14:56.140 --> 00:14:59.140
  • JUST THE HANDIWORK OF GOD,"
  • 00:14:59.140 --> 00:15:00.060
  • YOU KNOW.
  • 00:15:00.060 --> 00:15:01.290
  • - ERIC: RAVI, I'M SORRY WE'RE
  • 00:15:01.290 --> 00:15:02.290
  • OUT OF TIME, BUT WE'RE JUST SO
  • 00:15:02.290 --> 00:15:04.240
  • HAPPY, FINALLY, TO GET YOU HERE
  • 00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:05.260
  • IN THE STUDIO.
  • 00:15:05.260 --> 00:15:06.240
  • I WANNA TELL FOLKS AGAIN ABOUT
  • 00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:08.080
  • YOUR BOOKS, "JESUS AMONG
  • 00:15:08.080 --> 00:15:09.070
  • SECULAR GODS: THE
  • 00:15:09.070 --> 00:15:10.200
  • COUNTERCULTURAL CLAIMS OF
  • 00:15:10.200 --> 00:15:12.070
  • CHRIST" CAME OUT LAST YEAR, AND
  • 00:15:12.070 --> 00:15:13.220
  • THEN THE BRAND-NEW BOOK, "THE
  • 00:15:13.220 --> 00:15:15.010
  • LOGIC OF GOD: 52 CHRISTIAN
  • 00:15:15.010 --> 00:15:17.020
  • ESSENTIALS FOR THE HEART AND
  • 00:15:17.020 --> 00:15:19.030
  • MIND," WHICH SEEMS NOT LIKE
  • 00:15:19.030 --> 00:15:21.010
  • YOUR AVERAGE DEVOTIONAL,
  • 00:15:21.010 --> 00:15:23.060
  • RZIM.ORG.
  • 00:15:25.170 --> 00:15:27.120
  • RAVI, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
  • 00:15:27.120 --> 00:15:28.080
  • - RAVI: THANKS, ERIC, AND BY
  • 00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:29.040
  • THE WAY, LOVED YOUR BOOKS.
  • 00:15:29.040 --> 00:15:30.200
  • THEY ARE HEAVY, BUT I STILL
  • 00:15:32.260 --> 00:15:33.160
  • CARRY THEM.
  • 00:15:33.160 --> 00:15:34.080
  • - ERIC: IF YOU'RE LISTENING,
  • 00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:34.290
  • I'M BLUSHING.
  • 00:15:34.290 --> 00:15:35.280
  • - ERIC: FOLKS, I DON'T KNOW HOW
  • 00:15:50.280 --> 00:15:51.200
  • WE DO IT, BUT WE SEEM TO GET
  • 00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:53.080
  • SOME EXTRAORDINARY GUESTS INTO
  • 00:15:53.080 --> 00:15:55.220
  • THE STUDIO HERE IN NEW YORK.
  • 00:15:55.220 --> 00:15:57.120
  • TODAY I'M PRIVILEGED TO SIT WITH
  • 00:15:57.120 --> 00:15:58.080
  • SOMEONE WHO LETS ME
  • 00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:01.060
  • BUT YOU MAY KNOW HIM AS
  • 00:16:03.190 --> 00:16:04.070
  • N.T. WRIGHT.
  • 00:16:04.070 --> 00:16:06.150
  • HE IS CERTAINLY ONE OF THE
  • 00:16:06.150 --> 00:16:07.040
  • WORLD'S LEADING BIBLE SCHOLARS,
  • 00:16:07.040 --> 00:16:08.240
  • SOMEONE WHOSE WORK AND
  • 00:16:08.240 --> 00:16:10.170
  • FRIENDSHIP I'VE BEEN VERY
  • 00:16:10.170 --> 00:16:13.050
  • GRATEFUL FOR.
  • 00:16:13.050 --> 00:16:15.070
  • HE IS ALSO THE CHAIR OF NEW
  • 00:16:15.070 --> 00:16:16.170
  • TESTAMENT AND EARLY CHRISTIANITY
  • 00:16:16.170 --> 00:16:17.250
  • AT THE SCHOOL OF DIVINITY AT
  • 00:16:17.250 --> 00:16:18.250
  • THE UNIVERSITY OF ST. ANDREWS,
  • 00:16:18.250 --> 00:16:21.180
  • AND HE'S AN ANGLICAN BISHOP,
  • 00:16:21.180 --> 00:16:23.200
  • YADA, YADA, YADA.
  • 00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:24.230
  • N.T. WRIGHT,
  • 00:16:24.230 --> 00:16:26.260
  • HOW WONDERFUL TO HAVE
  • 00:16:26.260 --> 00:16:27.150
  • YOU HERE.
  • 00:16:27.150 --> 00:16:28.020
  • - N.T. WRIGHT:
  • 00:16:28.020 --> 00:16:28.160
  • IT'S GOOD TO BE BACK,
  • 00:16:28.160 --> 00:16:29.180
  • ERIC, THANK YOU.
  • 00:16:29.180 --> 00:16:31.030
  • - ERIC: WELL, YOU HAVE WRITTEN
  • 00:16:31.030 --> 00:16:32.070
  • AND SPOKEN A LOT ON THIS ISSUE,
  • 00:16:32.070 --> 00:16:33.120
  • AND I THINK THERE ARE PROBABLY
  • 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:34.190
  • PEOPLE LISTENING, WHO ARE
  • 00:16:34.190 --> 00:16:35.160
  • CONFUSED EVEN ABOUT WHAT THIS
  • 00:16:35.160 --> 00:16:37.130
  • ISSUE IS BECAUSE IT'S A LITTLE
  • 00:16:37.130 --> 00:16:38.280
  • BIT COMPLICATED.
  • 00:16:38.280 --> 00:16:39.270
  • LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT, THE IDEA,
  • 00:16:40.140 --> 00:16:43.140
  • FOR EXAMPLE, THE IDEAS OF HEAVEN
  • 00:16:43.140 --> 00:16:45.190
  • AND HELL AND WHAT THAT MEANS,
  • 00:16:45.190 --> 00:16:48.030
  • AND THIS HISTORICAL IDEA IN THE
  • 00:16:49.140 --> 00:16:52.140
  • CHRISTIAN FAITH THAT THERE ARE
  • 00:16:52.140 --> 00:16:54.150
  • THESE PLACES TO WHICH ONE GOES
  • 00:16:54.150 --> 00:16:56.020
  • AFTER ONE DIES.
  • 00:16:56.020 --> 00:16:58.220
  • IT'S A LITTLE BIT MORE
  • 00:16:58.220 --> 00:17:00.160
  • COMPLICATED THAN THAT, AND YOU
  • 00:17:00.160 --> 00:17:01.120
  • HAVE DONE A LOT OF WORK IN
  • 00:17:01.120 --> 00:17:02.130
  • HELPING US FIGURE OUT WHAT THAT
  • 00:17:02.130 --> 00:17:03.130
  • MEANS.
  • 00:17:03.130 --> 00:17:04.140
  • - N.T.: YEAH, IT'S MUCH MORE
  • 00:17:04.140 --> 00:17:05.050
  • COMPLICATED.
  • 00:17:05.050 --> 00:17:05.290
  • I MEAN, HEAVEN IS IMPORTANT, BUT
  • 00:17:05.290 --> 00:17:07.040
  • IT'S NOT THE END OF THE WORLD.
  • 00:17:07.040 --> 00:17:08.180
  • THAT'S THE STRAPLINE AND--
  • 00:17:08.180 --> 00:17:10.270
  • - ERIC: WHOA, WHOA, WHOA, WHOA,
  • 00:17:10.270 --> 00:17:11.200
  • WHOA.
  • 00:17:11.200 --> 00:17:12.070
  • DO YOU MEAN "NOT THE END OF THE
  • 00:17:12.070 --> 00:17:12.290
  • WORLD" IN EVERY SENSE OF THAT?
  • 00:17:12.290 --> 00:17:13.200
  • [LAUGHTER]
  • 00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:14.050
  • - N.T.: YES, YES, THE CLIMAX OF
  • 00:17:14.050 --> 00:17:16.180
  • GOD'S PLAN FOR HIS WORLD IS THE
  • 00:17:17.030 --> 00:17:20.030
  • NEW HEAVEN'S AND THE NEW EARTH,
  • 00:17:20.030 --> 00:17:22.150
  • AND IN THE BIBLE, IT ISN'T
  • 00:17:22.150 --> 00:17:23.260
  • HEAVEN, HELL, AND WE'RE JUST IN
  • 00:17:23.260 --> 00:17:24.250
  • A KIND OF A HOLDING
  • 00:17:24.250 --> 00:17:25.110
  • PATTERN HERE.
  • 00:17:25.110 --> 00:17:26.190
  • IT'S WE ARE WAITING FOR HEAVEN
  • 00:17:27.040 --> 00:17:30.040
  • AND EARTH TO COME TOGETHER.
  • 00:17:30.040 --> 00:17:31.110
  • IN PAUL'S LETTER TO THE
  • 00:17:31.110 --> 00:17:31.290
  • EPHESIANS, HE SAYS,
  • 00:17:31.290 --> 00:17:34.040
  • "GOD'S PLAN IS TO SUM
  • 00:17:34.040 --> 00:17:35.150
  • UP IN CHRIST ALL THINGS
  • 00:17:35.150 --> 00:17:36.250
  • IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH,"
  • 00:17:36.250 --> 00:17:37.150
  • NOT TO TAKE US EARTHLINGS AWAY
  • 00:17:37.150 --> 00:17:39.180
  • FROM EARTH TO A PLACE
  • 00:17:39.180 --> 00:17:40.220
  • CALLED HEAVEN.
  • 00:17:40.220 --> 00:17:41.090
  • SO HEAVEN IS THE HOLDING PATTERN
  • 00:17:41.090 --> 00:17:42.140
  • AGAINST THE DAY WHEN GOD DOES
  • 00:17:42.140 --> 00:17:44.280
  • THE NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH,
  • 00:17:44.280 --> 00:17:46.140
  • AND RAISES US FROM THE DEAD.
  • 00:17:46.140 --> 00:17:48.040
  • - ERIC: MANY CHRISTIANS HAVE
  • 00:17:48.040 --> 00:17:48.250
  • THIS-- THIS IS NOT THE RIGHT
  • 00:17:48.250 --> 00:17:50.140
  • TERM, BUT I WILL CALL IT KIND OF
  • 00:17:50.140 --> 00:17:52.000
  • A "REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY,"
  • 00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:52.220
  • WHERE THEY SAY,
  • 00:17:52.220 --> 00:17:54.100
  • "EARTH, BAD; HEAVEN, GOOD."
  • 00:17:54.100 --> 00:17:55.290
  • - N.T.: EXACTLY.
  • 00:17:55.290 --> 00:17:57.280
  • - ERIC: AND IT'S, I GUESS,
  • 00:17:57.280 --> 00:17:59.120
  • ARISTOTELIAN, MAYBE, BUT WE
  • 00:17:59.120 --> 00:18:01.140
  • DON'T NEED TO GET INTO THAT,
  • 00:18:01.140 --> 00:18:02.040
  • BUT I WAS GONNA SAY
  • 00:18:02.040 --> 00:18:04.150
  • THAT IT'S A BAD IDEA
  • 00:18:04.150 --> 00:18:05.210
  • BECAUSE GOD WANTS TO REDEEM
  • 00:18:05.210 --> 00:18:08.110
  • THE EARTH, NOT DO AWAY WITH IT
  • 00:18:08.110 --> 00:18:09.280
  • AND REPLACE IT WITH HEAVEN.
  • 00:18:09.280 --> 00:18:12.240
  • IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE GETTING AT?
  • 00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:13.160
  • - N.T.: THAT'S THE CRUCIAL
  • 00:18:13.160 --> 00:18:14.060
  • THING, BUT IT'S NOT JUST PLATO
  • 00:18:14.060 --> 00:18:14.270
  • AND ARISTOTLE, THOUGH PLATO,
  • 00:18:14.270 --> 00:18:16.040
  • PARTICULARLY, IS HOVERING IN THE
  • 00:18:16.040 --> 00:18:17.080
  • BACKGROUND FOR SOME OF THIS, BUT
  • 00:18:17.080 --> 00:18:18.130
  • ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WAS
  • 00:18:18.130 --> 00:18:19.280
  • FASCINATING TO ME DURING THE
  • 00:18:19.280 --> 00:18:21.080
  • RESEARCH FOR THE GIFFORDS WAS TO
  • 00:18:21.080 --> 00:18:22.160
  • LOOK AT THE 18TH AND 19TH
  • 00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:23.190
  • CENTURIES IN WESTERN CULTURE, IN
  • 00:18:23.190 --> 00:18:25.080
  • GENERAL, TO SEE THE REVIVAL
  • 00:18:25.080 --> 00:18:26.220
  • OF EPICUREANISM.
  • 00:18:26.220 --> 00:18:29.220
  • NOW, EPICURUS AND HIS GREAT
  • 00:18:29.220 --> 00:18:32.050
  • POET, PROPHET LUCRETIUS, IN THE
  • 00:18:32.050 --> 00:18:33.150
  • FIRST CENTURY B.C.,
  • 00:18:33.150 --> 00:18:34.110
  • BELIEVED THAT,
  • 00:18:34.110 --> 00:18:35.060
  • IF THE GODS EXISTED,
  • 00:18:35.060 --> 00:18:36.070
  • THEY WERE A LONG WAY AWAY.
  • 00:18:36.070 --> 00:18:37.130
  • THEY DIDN'T CONCERN US, AND WE
  • 00:18:37.130 --> 00:18:38.190
  • DIDN'T CONCERN THEM, AND SO YOU
  • 00:18:38.190 --> 00:18:40.070
  • JUST HAD TO MAKE THE BEST OF
  • 00:18:40.070 --> 00:18:41.280
  • WHERE YOU WERE AT THE MOMENT.
  • 00:18:41.280 --> 00:18:43.010
  • NOW, IN THE 18TH CENTURY, THAT
  • 00:18:43.010 --> 00:18:44.190
  • SUDDENLY CAME FROM BEING A
  • 00:18:44.190 --> 00:18:46.180
  • MINORITY VIEW TO
  • 00:18:46.180 --> 00:18:47.160
  • BEING MAINSTREAM.
  • 00:18:47.160 --> 00:18:48.280
  • THOMAS JEFFERSON SAID ON ONE
  • 00:18:48.280 --> 00:18:50.030
  • OCCASION, "I AM AN EPICUREAN."
  • 00:18:50.030 --> 00:18:51.290
  • NOW, HE WAS MANY OTHER THINGS AS
  • 00:18:51.290 --> 00:18:53.030
  • WELL, BUT THE POINT THEN IS THAT
  • 00:18:53.030 --> 00:18:54.160
  • WE'VE ASSUMED-- AND THIS IS
  • 00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:56.220
  • REALLY THE ENLIGHTENMENT-- A
  • 00:18:56.220 --> 00:18:58.010
  • SPLIT BETWEEN HEAVEN AND EARTH
  • 00:18:58.010 --> 00:18:59.260
  • SO, YOU KNOW, NO PRAYER IN
  • 00:18:59.260 --> 00:19:01.230
  • SCHOOLS, OR WHATEVER IT IS--
  • 00:19:01.230 --> 00:19:03.120
  • THESE PLAY OUT IN YOUR COUNTRY
  • 00:19:03.120 --> 00:19:04.190
  • MORE THAN IN MINE-- AND THEN
  • 00:19:04.190 --> 00:19:05.120
  • CHRISTIANS HAVE TRIED TO MAKE
  • 00:19:05.120 --> 00:19:07.170
  • THEIR PEACE WITH THAT BY
  • 00:19:07.170 --> 00:19:09.030
  • ADOPTING PLATO'S IDEA THAT,
  • 00:19:09.030 --> 00:19:10.290
  • WELL, YEAH, THAT HEAVEN IS A
  • 00:19:10.290 --> 00:19:12.020
  • LONG WAY AWAY, BUT WE HAVE THIS
  • 00:19:12.020 --> 00:19:13.160
  • THING CALLED A SOUL, AND ONE DAY
  • 00:19:13.160 --> 00:19:15.210
  • IT'LL BE GOING BACK THERE.
  • 00:19:15.210 --> 00:19:16.100
  • AND I SAY TO PEOPLE, "YOU GO TO
  • 00:19:16.100 --> 00:19:17.190
  • THE FIRST CENTURY, LOOKING FOR
  • 00:19:17.190 --> 00:19:19.060
  • SOMEBODY WHO DOES THAT."
  • 00:19:19.060 --> 00:19:20.110
  • YOU KNOW WHO IT IS?
  • 00:19:20.110 --> 00:19:20.270
  • IT'S NOT PAUL.
  • 00:19:20.270 --> 00:19:22.020
  • IT'S NOT JESUS.
  • 00:19:22.020 --> 00:19:23.110
  • IT'S A GUY CALLED PLUTARCH,
  • 00:19:23.110 --> 00:19:25.080
  • WHO WAS A PAGAN PRIEST IN THE
  • 00:19:25.080 --> 00:19:26.110
  • SHRINE OF DELPHI, AND HE WAS A
  • 00:19:26.110 --> 00:19:27.270
  • PHILOSOPHER AND A BIOGRAPHER,
  • 00:19:27.270 --> 00:19:28.230
  • A GUY RATHER LIKE YOU, ACTUALLY,
  • 00:19:28.230 --> 00:19:30.150
  • EXCEPT MAYBE A BIT DIFFERENT.
  • 00:19:30.150 --> 00:19:31.260
  • - ERIC: AND HE WAS GREEK,
  • 00:19:31.260 --> 00:19:32.240
  • WASN'T HE?
  • 00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:34.060
  • - N.T.: HE WAS, AND HE--
  • 00:19:34.060 --> 00:19:34.260
  • - ERIC: I'M ONLY HALF GREEK.
  • 00:19:34.260 --> 00:19:35.220
  • - N.T.: HE WAS GREEK, AND HE
  • 00:19:35.220 --> 00:19:36.160
  • WAS VERY SMART, AND SO THERE
  • 00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:37.180
  • WE ARE.
  • 00:19:37.180 --> 00:19:38.180
  • - ERIC: OH, THANK YOU.
  • 00:19:38.180 --> 00:19:39.140
  • - N.T.: BUT PLUTARCH SAYS, "OUR
  • 00:19:39.140 --> 00:19:41.210
  • SOULS ARE IN EXILE FROM HEAVEN,
  • 00:19:41.210 --> 00:19:44.100
  • AND WE'RE WAITING TO GO
  • 00:19:44.100 --> 00:19:44.280
  • BACK THERE."
  • 00:19:44.280 --> 00:19:45.210
  • AND I'VE OFTEN THOUGHT,
  • 00:19:45.210 --> 00:19:46.160
  • "THAT'S WHAT MOST MODERN WESTERN
  • 00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:47.270
  • CHRISTIANS THINK.
  • 00:19:47.270 --> 00:19:49.090
  • THAT'S PLATONISM.
  • 00:19:49.090 --> 00:19:49.240
  • IT'S NOT CHRISTIANITY."
  • 00:19:49.240 --> 00:19:51.130
  • - ERIC: OKAY, NOW, THIS IS VERY
  • 00:19:51.130 --> 00:19:53.090
  • DEEP STUFF, MAYBE NOT FOR YOU,
  • 00:19:53.090 --> 00:19:54.000
  • BUT I WANNA MAKE SURE THAT MY
  • 00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:54.210
  • AUDIENCE IS TRACKING BECAUSE
  • 00:19:54.210 --> 00:19:55.220
  • IT'S EXTREMELY IMPORTANT,
  • 00:19:55.220 --> 00:19:57.190
  • THIS IDEA THAT WE'RE
  • 00:20:00.020 --> 00:20:03.020
  • SOMEHOW, AS YOU SAID,
  • 00:20:03.020 --> 00:20:05.100
  • "WE'RE EXILED HERE."
  • 00:20:05.100 --> 00:20:06.190
  • THERE'S ALWAYS TRUTH TO THESE
  • 00:20:06.190 --> 00:20:08.060
  • THINGS, BUT IF YOU TAKE IT TOO
  • 00:20:08.060 --> 00:20:09.200
  • FAR, FOR ME, THE IRONY IS THE
  • 00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:11.130
  • ENLIGHTENMENT THAT WE CHRISTIANS
  • 00:20:12.110 --> 00:20:15.110
  • HAVE ADOPTED-- OR WE'VE ALLOWED
  • 00:20:15.110 --> 00:20:17.210
  • THE ENLIGHTENMENT TO AFFECT US
  • 00:20:17.210 --> 00:20:19.230
  • IN SUCH A WAY THAT IT HAS MESSED
  • 00:20:19.230 --> 00:20:21.280
  • WITH OUR VIEW OF THE SCRIPTURE.
  • 00:20:22.100 --> 00:20:25.100
  • - N.T.: EXACTLY, AND IT'S
  • 00:20:25.100 --> 00:20:26.140
  • TRANSFORMED THE WAY THAT CENTRAL
  • 00:20:26.140 --> 00:20:29.140
  • THEOLOGICAL ISSUES ARE HANDLED,
  • 00:20:29.140 --> 00:20:31.070
  • LIKE, "WAS JESUS BOTH DIVINE
  • 00:20:31.070 --> 00:20:32.020
  • AND HUMAN?"
  • 00:20:32.020 --> 00:20:33.110
  • WELL, THE ENLIGHTENMENT SAYS,
  • 00:20:33.110 --> 00:20:34.110
  • "'DIVINE' AND 'HUMAN,' THOSE ARE
  • 00:20:34.110 --> 00:20:35.230
  • TOTALLY DIFFERENT, SO THIS JUST
  • 00:20:35.230 --> 00:20:36.250
  • A SILLY IDEA."
  • 00:20:36.250 --> 00:20:37.200
  • AND THEN, PARTICULARLY,
  • 00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:39.270
  • "ESCHATOLOGY,"
  • 00:20:39.270 --> 00:20:41.080
  • FROM THE LATE 19TH CENTURY,
  • 00:20:41.080 --> 00:20:43.080
  • ONWARD, SINCE ALBERT SCHWEITZER,
  • 00:20:43.080 --> 00:20:45.100
  • PEOPLE HAVE BEEN TAUGHT IN
  • 00:20:45.100 --> 00:20:46.060
  • SEMINARY THAT JESUS AND HIS
  • 00:20:46.060 --> 00:20:47.220
  • FOLLOWERS EXPECTED THE END OF
  • 00:20:47.220 --> 00:20:49.270
  • THE WORLD VERY SOON AND THAT
  • 00:20:49.270 --> 00:20:51.180
  • THEY WERE DISAPPOINTED.
  • 00:20:51.180 --> 00:20:54.030
  • THEY THOUGHT THE WORLD WAS
  • 00:20:54.030 --> 00:20:54.260
  • GONNA END.
  • 00:20:54.260 --> 00:20:55.200
  • THE REASON THEY THOUGHT THAT,
  • 00:20:55.200 --> 00:20:57.090
  • SCHWEITZER AND HIS COLLEAGUES,
  • 00:20:57.090 --> 00:20:58.180
  • WAS BECAUSE THEY WERE THINKING
  • 00:20:58.180 --> 00:21:00.230
  • IN TERMS OF A HEAVEN WHICH IS
  • 00:21:00.230 --> 00:21:02.010
  • TOTALLY DIFFERENT SO THAT, IF
  • 00:21:02.010 --> 00:21:04.000
  • THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ARRIVES,
  • 00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:05.260
  • EARTH IS GONNA HAVE TO GET OUT
  • 00:21:05.260 --> 00:21:07.210
  • OF THE WAY TO MAKE ROOM FOR IT.
  • 00:21:07.210 --> 00:21:09.080
  • NOW, WHAT WE'VE FORGOTTEN IS HOW
  • 00:21:09.080 --> 00:21:11.140
  • JEWS THINK, WHICH IS THAT, IN
  • 00:21:11.140 --> 00:21:13.200
  • THE TEMPLE, HEAVEN AND EARTH
  • 00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:14.240
  • COME TOGETHER, AND IN THE
  • 00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:17.180
  • SABBATH-- AND MANY JEWS THINK
  • 00:21:17.180 --> 00:21:20.010
  • LIKE THIS TO THIS DAY--
  • 00:21:20.010 --> 00:21:21.040
  • IN THE SABBATH,
  • 00:21:21.040 --> 00:21:22.070
  • THE FUTURE MYSTERIOUSLY
  • 00:21:22.070 --> 00:21:24.280
  • ARRIVES IN THE PRESENT,
  • 00:21:24.280 --> 00:21:26.200
  • SO THE JEWS HAVE
  • 00:21:26.200 --> 00:21:27.120
  • A WAY OF THINKING
  • 00:21:27.120 --> 00:21:29.190
  • ABOUT SPACE AND TIME WITHIN
  • 00:21:29.190 --> 00:21:32.080
  • WHICH JESUS' ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE
  • 00:21:32.080 --> 00:21:34.060
  • KINGDOM OF GOD MAKES SENSE, BUT
  • 00:21:34.060 --> 00:21:35.090
  • QUITE A DIFFERENT SENSE FROM
  • 00:21:35.090 --> 00:21:37.060
  • WHAT WE POST-ENLIGHTENMENT
  • 00:21:37.060 --> 00:21:38.210
  • WESTERNERS HAVE IMAGINED.
  • 00:21:38.210 --> 00:21:40.090
  • - ERIC: ONE OF THE WAYS I TRY
  • 00:21:40.090 --> 00:21:41.250
  • TO THINK OF THIS-- AND I'M
  • 00:21:41.250 --> 00:21:42.140
  • INVITING YOU TO HELP ME FIGURE
  • 00:21:42.140 --> 00:21:43.240
  • THIS OUT, BUT WHEN PAUL IS IN
  • 00:21:43.240 --> 00:21:44.210
  • PRISON AND HE IS IN CHAINS, AND
  • 00:21:45.170 --> 00:21:48.170
  • HE SAYS, "AND, YET WE ARE SEATED
  • 00:21:48.170 --> 00:21:49.260
  • WITH HIM, WITH THE LORD,
  • 00:21:49.260 --> 00:21:51.120
  • IN HEAVENLY PLACES, EVEN NOW,"
  • 00:21:51.120 --> 00:21:53.160
  • WHEN WE ARE BORN AGAIN, WE ARE
  • 00:21:53.160 --> 00:21:55.120
  • IMMEDIATELY, TO SOME EXTENT,
  • 00:21:55.120 --> 00:21:58.100
  • IN HEAVEN.
  • 00:21:58.100 --> 00:22:00.090
  • - N.T.: YES, YES, AND, AGAIN,
  • 00:22:00.090 --> 00:22:02.180
  • EPHESIANS IS ONE OF THE CLASSIC
  • 00:22:02.180 --> 00:22:04.070
  • STATEMENTS OF THAT, ALREADY
  • 00:22:04.070 --> 00:22:05.160
  • "SEATED WITH HIM IN HEAVENLY--"
  • 00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:07.130
  • AND, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE SAY,
  • 00:22:07.130 --> 00:22:09.100
  • "IT'S A VERY GRANDIOSE VISION.
  • 00:22:09.100 --> 00:22:10.150
  • HOW COULD PAUL POSSIBLY
  • 00:22:10.150 --> 00:22:11.060
  • SAY THAT?"
  • 00:22:11.060 --> 00:22:11.270
  • AND THE ANSWER IS, AS YOU SAY,
  • 00:22:11.270 --> 00:22:12.180
  • BECAUSE, IF YOU ARE PART OF
  • 00:22:12.180 --> 00:22:14.070
  • JESUS' PEOPLE, PART OF THE
  • 00:22:14.070 --> 00:22:17.030
  • MESSIANIC FAMILY, IF YOU LIKE,
  • 00:22:17.030 --> 00:22:18.170
  • THE MESSIAH'S PEOPLE, THEN JESUS
  • 00:22:18.170 --> 00:22:19.280
  • IS ALREADY EXALTED AT THE RIGHT
  • 00:22:19.280 --> 00:22:22.020
  • HAND OF GOD, AND THAT'S, IN A
  • 00:22:22.020 --> 00:22:23.240
  • SENSE, METAPHORICAL LANGUAGE,
  • 00:22:23.240 --> 00:22:25.080
  • BUT, IN A SENSE, IT ISN'T.
  • 00:22:25.080 --> 00:22:27.040
  • THIS IS THE REALITY, BUT YOU
  • 00:22:27.040 --> 00:22:28.210
  • HAVE TO THINK DIFFERENTLY ABOUT
  • 00:22:28.210 --> 00:22:30.140
  • HEAVEN AND EARTH IN ORDER TO GET
  • 00:22:30.140 --> 00:22:31.270
  • THERE, BUT IT RESULTS TODAY IN
  • 00:22:31.270 --> 00:22:33.200
  • THE FACT THAT THE WESTERN WORLD
  • 00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:35.130
  • HAS SPLIT APART HEAVEN AND
  • 00:22:35.130 --> 00:22:37.160
  • EARTH, AND THEN CHRISTIANS THINK
  • 00:22:37.160 --> 00:22:39.040
  • THAT WE HAVE TO SPLIT APART
  • 00:22:39.040 --> 00:22:40.180
  • HEAVEN AND HELL, AND BOTH OF
  • 00:22:40.180 --> 00:22:42.100
  • THOSE ARE DEEP-ROOTED MISTAKES
  • 00:22:42.100 --> 00:22:44.180
  • IN HOW READ SCRIPTURE, SO A
  • 00:22:44.180 --> 00:22:47.010
  • PHRASE LIKE, "THE KINGDOM OF
  • 00:22:47.010 --> 00:22:48.070
  • HEAVEN," PEOPLE ASSUME THAT THAT
  • 00:22:48.070 --> 00:22:50.000
  • MEANS A PLACE CALLED "HEAVEN,"
  • 00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:52.020
  • TO WHICH YOU GO WHEN YOU DIE,
  • 00:22:52.020 --> 00:22:52.230
  • MAYBE.
  • 00:22:52.230 --> 00:22:54.130
  • NO, JESUS TAUGHT US TO PRAY,
  • 00:22:54.130 --> 00:22:56.140
  • "THY KINGDOM COME ON EARTH
  • 00:22:56.140 --> 00:22:58.150
  • AS IN HEAVEN."
  • 00:22:58.150 --> 00:22:59.070
  • IN MY EXPERIENCE, MANY WESTERN
  • 00:22:59.070 --> 00:23:00.140
  • CHRISTIANS HAVE HARDLY BEGUN
  • 00:23:00.140 --> 00:23:01.180
  • TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THAT
  • 00:23:01.180 --> 00:23:02.160
  • MIGHT MEAN.
  • 00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:04.000
  • - ERIC: ACTUALLY, EVEN WHEN I
  • 00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:05.040
  • HAVE PRAYED, "THY KINGDOM COME,
  • 00:23:05.040 --> 00:23:06.280
  • THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT
  • 00:23:06.280 --> 00:23:08.210
  • IS IN HEAVEN," EVEN I HAVE HAD
  • 00:23:08.210 --> 00:23:10.040
  • THIS IDEA THAT I'M PRAYING ABOUT
  • 00:23:10.040 --> 00:23:12.070
  • SOMETHING WHICH IS FAR IN THE
  • 00:23:12.070 --> 00:23:14.050
  • DISTANCE RATHER THAN SOMETHING
  • 00:23:14.050 --> 00:23:15.190
  • THAT I OUGHT TO BE
  • 00:23:15.190 --> 00:23:17.030
  • EXPECTING NOW.
  • 00:23:17.030 --> 00:23:19.000
  • - N.T.: WELL, BUT IT'S VERY
  • 00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:20.030
  • CLEAR AT THE END OF MATTHEW'S
  • 00:23:20.030 --> 00:23:21.130
  • GOSPEL, THE RISEN JESUS SAYS,
  • 00:23:21.130 --> 00:23:22.210
  • "ALL AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND ON
  • 00:23:22.210 --> 00:23:24.020
  • EARTH HAS BEEN GIVEN TO ME," AND
  • 00:23:24.020 --> 00:23:25.230
  • THAT PHRASE IS ECHOING THE
  • 00:23:25.230 --> 00:23:27.120
  • KINGDOM LANGUAGE FROM THE BOOK
  • 00:23:27.120 --> 00:23:29.190
  • OF DANIEL, AND IT BASICALLY
  • 00:23:29.190 --> 00:23:31.020
  • MEANS THE KINGDOM HAS BEEN
  • 00:23:31.020 --> 00:23:32.160
  • LAUNCHED, AND IN 1 CORINTHIANS
  • 00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:35.160
  • 15, PAUL SAYS THE SAME THING.
  • 00:23:35.160 --> 00:23:37.040
  • - ERIC: WHAT DO YOU MEAN
  • 00:23:37.040 --> 00:23:37.230
  • BY THAT?
  • 00:23:37.230 --> 00:23:38.070
  • I'M NOT FOLLOWING THAT.
  • 00:23:38.070 --> 00:23:38.290
  • - N.T.: WELL, THE PICTURE
  • 00:23:38.290 --> 00:23:40.080
  • PEOPLE HAVE IN MIND IS THAT ONE
  • 00:23:40.080 --> 00:23:41.200
  • FROM MICHELANGELO'S SISTINE
  • 00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:42.270
  • CHAPEL OF JESUS IN MAJESTY,
  • 00:23:42.270 --> 00:23:44.110
  • BRINGING SOME SOULS UPSTAIRS TO
  • 00:23:44.110 --> 00:23:46.200
  • HEAVEN, AND SENDING SOME
  • 00:23:46.200 --> 00:23:48.280
  • OTHERS DOWNSTAIRS.
  • 00:23:48.280 --> 00:23:49.250
  • NOW, YOU WILL KNOW, ONE OF MY
  • 00:23:49.250 --> 00:23:51.120
  • FAVORITE BOOKS BY C.S. LEWIS
  • 00:23:51.120 --> 00:23:52.250
  • IS THAT WONDERFUL BOOK,
  • 00:23:52.250 --> 00:23:53.220
  • "THE GREAT DIVORCE," WHERE HE
  • 00:23:53.220 --> 00:23:55.010
  • DESCRIBES HEAVEN, BUT IT'S
  • 00:23:55.010 --> 00:23:56.200
  • ACTUALLY A NEW EARTH.
  • 00:23:56.200 --> 00:23:59.000
  • IT'S A RENEWED PHYSICALITY, AND
  • 00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:00.220
  • FOR HIM, HELL IS SO THIN AND
  • 00:24:00.220 --> 00:24:02.280
  • SLIGHT AND INSUBSTANTIAL BECAUSE
  • 00:24:02.280 --> 00:24:05.000
  • IT'S BASICALLY A PLACE OF
  • 00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:06.100
  • NEGATION, AND THE IDEA THAT
  • 00:24:06.100 --> 00:24:07.290
  • THEY'RE SORT OF EQUAL AND
  • 00:24:07.290 --> 00:24:09.050
  • OPPOSITE, LEWIS IS TRYING TO
  • 00:24:09.050 --> 00:24:10.160
  • BREAK OUT OF THAT.
  • 00:24:10.160 --> 00:24:11.160
  • - ERIC: I'VE SAID THIS TO A
  • 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:12.210
  • NUMBER OF PEOPLE, AND THEY GET
  • 00:24:12.210 --> 00:24:13.220
  • VERY UPSET AT THE IDEA THAT HELL
  • 00:24:13.220 --> 00:24:15.000
  • WOULD BE THE UNMAKING OF A
  • 00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:17.220
  • PERSON, ALMOST A DISINTEGRATION
  • 00:24:17.220 --> 00:24:19.190
  • UNTO NOTHINGNESS.
  • 00:24:19.190 --> 00:24:21.190
  • - N.T.: THE WAY I SEE
  • 00:24:21.190 --> 00:24:22.060
  • IT IS THIS.
  • 00:24:22.060 --> 00:24:22.230
  • IF, AS HUMANS, WE ARE MADE TO
  • 00:24:22.230 --> 00:24:24.240
  • REFLECT GOD, WE'RE MADE TO BE
  • 00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:25.280
  • GOD-REFLECTORS, THEN THAT IMAGE,
  • 00:24:25.280 --> 00:24:28.040
  • WE'RE MADE TO BE IN THE IMAGE OF
  • 00:24:28.040 --> 00:24:30.120
  • GOD, WHICH IS REFLECTING OF--
  • 00:24:30.120 --> 00:24:31.210
  • THE WAY THAT THAT IS SUSTAINED
  • 00:24:31.210 --> 00:24:33.220
  • IS BY WORSHIPING THE TRUE GOD
  • 00:24:33.220 --> 00:24:35.100
  • BECAUSE ONE OF THE RULES OF
  • 00:24:35.100 --> 00:24:36.290
  • SPIRITUALITY IS YOU BECOME
  • 00:24:36.290 --> 00:24:38.230
  • LIKE WHAT YOU WORSHIP.
  • 00:24:38.230 --> 00:24:40.040
  • NOW, IF YOU WORSHIP THE TRUE AND
  • 00:24:40.040 --> 00:24:42.000
  • LIVING GOD, YOU ARE
  • 00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:43.080
  • SUSTAINED IN LIFE.
  • 00:24:43.080 --> 00:24:45.000
  • YOU BECOME A MORE ALIVE BEING.
  • 00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:47.110
  • IF YOU WORSHIP THAT WHICH IS NOT
  • 00:24:47.110 --> 00:24:49.200
  • GOD, WHETHER IT'S MONEY OR SEX
  • 00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:51.200
  • OR POWER, OR ANY OF THE OTHER
  • 00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:52.230
  • THINGS PEOPLE WORSHIP, THOSE
  • 00:24:52.230 --> 00:24:53.240
  • THINGS DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE LIFE
  • 00:24:53.240 --> 00:24:55.130
  • IN THEMSELVES, SO YOU'RE
  • 00:24:55.130 --> 00:24:57.270
  • WORSHIPING THAT WHICH IS
  • 00:24:57.270 --> 00:25:00.030
  • ESSENTIALLY DEAD, AND YOU ARE
  • 00:25:00.030 --> 00:25:02.160
  • SAYING, "I WANT TO BE
  • 00:25:02.160 --> 00:25:03.140
  • LIKE THAT."
  • 00:25:03.140 --> 00:25:04.070
  • THE PSALMS SAY THIS,
  • 00:25:04.070 --> 00:25:05.120
  • "THOSE WHO MAKE THEM ARE LIKE
  • 00:25:05.120 --> 00:25:06.120
  • UNTO THEM," THINKING OF IDOLS.
  • 00:25:06.120 --> 00:25:08.030
  • - ERIC: OKAY, SO IF ONE IS
  • 00:25:08.030 --> 00:25:09.050
  • WORSHIPING THAT WHICH HAS NO
  • 00:25:09.050 --> 00:25:10.160
  • LIFE, WHICH IS DEAD, THEN ONE,
  • 00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:12.140
  • IN THE END, CHOOSES TO DIE AND
  • 00:25:12.140 --> 00:25:13.170
  • NOT TO PARTICIPATE IN THE
  • 00:25:13.210 --> 00:25:16.210
  • ETERNAL LIFE FOR WHICH
  • 00:25:16.210 --> 00:25:17.270
  • WE'RE CREATED.
  • 00:25:17.270 --> 00:25:18.150
  • SO WHAT DOES THAT MEAN TO DIE?
  • 00:25:18.230 --> 00:25:21.230
  • IT SEEMS TO ME, BASED ON WHAT
  • 00:25:21.230 --> 00:25:23.220
  • WE'RE SAYING, THAT IT MEANS TO
  • 00:25:23.220 --> 00:25:25.060
  • CEASE TO EXIST UTTERLY.
  • 00:25:25.060 --> 00:25:27.160
  • - N.T.: IT MIGHT.
  • 00:25:27.160 --> 00:25:28.260
  • I'M NOT CLEAR ABOUT THAT.
  • 00:25:28.260 --> 00:25:31.010
  • IT MIGHT MEAN TO CEASE TO EXIST
  • 00:25:31.010 --> 00:25:33.230
  • AS AN IMAGE-REFLECTING HUMAN
  • 00:25:33.230 --> 00:25:35.010
  • BEING, TO BECOME AN EX-IMAGE
  • 00:25:35.010 --> 00:25:36.190
  • BEARER, IF YOU LIKE.
  • 00:25:36.190 --> 00:25:38.010
  • I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS--
  • 00:25:38.010 --> 00:25:39.150
  • - ERIC: WHICH SOUNDS LIKE BEING
  • 00:25:39.150 --> 00:25:40.070
  • IN THE HELL OF THE MEDIEVAL ERA.
  • 00:25:40.070 --> 00:25:43.070
  • - N.T.: NO-- OH, WAIT.
  • 00:25:43.070 --> 00:25:44.120
  • - ERIC: POTENTIALLY?
  • 00:25:44.120 --> 00:25:45.050
  • - N.T.: YOU COULD GO THAT
  • 00:25:45.050 --> 00:25:46.020
  • ROUTE, BUT I WOULDN'T.
  • 00:25:46.020 --> 00:25:47.120
  • I HAVE TEASED THIS OUT A BIT IN
  • 00:25:47.120 --> 00:25:48.190
  • MY BOOK "SURPRISED BY HOPE,"
  • 00:25:48.190 --> 00:25:50.060
  • BUT I THINK WE HAVE TO REMIND
  • 00:25:50.060 --> 00:25:52.170
  • OURSELVES-- AND THIS ISN'T JUST
  • 00:25:52.170 --> 00:25:53.240
  • A COP-OUT.
  • 00:25:53.240 --> 00:25:54.070
  • THIS IS QUITE A SERIOUS POINT
  • 00:25:54.070 --> 00:25:55.150
  • THAT WE DON'T HAVE GOOD LANGUAGE
  • 00:25:56.070 --> 00:25:59.070
  • FOR TALKING ABOUT EITHER THE
  • 00:25:59.070 --> 00:26:00.130
  • WONDERFUL ULTIMATE FUTURE OR THE
  • 00:26:00.130 --> 00:26:01.280
  • DANGEROUS AND NEGATIVE.
  • 00:26:01.280 --> 00:26:03.260
  • WE JUST DON'T HAVE GOOD WORDS
  • 00:26:03.260 --> 00:26:06.140
  • AND CONCEPTS TO TELL THE RIGHT
  • 00:26:06.140 --> 00:26:07.270
  • STORIES, SO IT'S IMPORTANT
  • 00:26:07.270 --> 00:26:09.160
  • TO BE RETICENT.
  • 00:26:09.160 --> 00:26:10.210
  • I'VE OFTEN SAID, "ALL OUR
  • 00:26:10.210 --> 00:26:11.270
  • LANGUAGE ABOUT THE FUTURE IS A
  • 00:26:11.270 --> 00:26:13.140
  • SET OF SIGNPOSTS POINTING
  • 00:26:13.140 --> 00:26:14.250
  • INTO A FOG.
  • 00:26:14.250 --> 00:26:16.180
  • THEY MAY BE TRUE SIGNPOSTS, BUT
  • 00:26:16.180 --> 00:26:17.280
  • THEY ARE NOT THEMSELVES THE
  • 00:26:17.280 --> 00:26:19.120
  • REALITY THAT WE'LL FIND WHEN WE
  • 00:26:19.120 --> 00:26:21.090
  • GET THERE, SO THERE'S A CERTAIN
  • 00:26:21.090 --> 00:26:22.170
  • HUMILITY WHICH IS REQUIRED.
  • 00:26:22.170 --> 00:26:23.230
  • - ERIC: WELL, IF ONE DOESN'T
  • 00:26:23.230 --> 00:26:25.120
  • SAY SOMETHING, ONE ALLOWS PEOPLE
  • 00:26:25.120 --> 00:26:26.290
  • TO CONTINUE TO THINK WHAT THEY
  • 00:26:26.290 --> 00:26:28.220
  • HAVE BEEN THINKING.
  • 00:26:28.220 --> 00:26:29.260
  • IN OTHER WORDS, HOW DO WE
  • 00:26:29.260 --> 00:26:30.260
  • CORRECT PEOPLE'S VIEWS?
  • 00:26:31.230 --> 00:26:34.230
  • HOW CAN WE HELP THEM TO THINK
  • 00:26:34.230 --> 00:26:37.170
  • ABOUT THEIR ETERNAL DESTINY?
  • 00:26:37.170 --> 00:26:39.030
  • - N.T.: MY SHORT ANSWER TO THE
  • 00:26:39.030 --> 00:26:40.120
  • "HOW" QUESTION IS THROUGH QUICK
  • 00:26:40.120 --> 00:26:42.010
  • LITTLE SAYINGS, WHICH YOU THEN
  • 00:26:42.010 --> 00:26:44.110
  • BACK UP, SO THAT I'VE OFTEN
  • 00:26:44.110 --> 00:26:45.230
  • SAID, "RESURRECTION ISN'T LIFE
  • 00:26:45.230 --> 00:26:46.190
  • AFTER DEATH.
  • 00:26:46.190 --> 00:26:48.060
  • IT'S LIFE AFTER, LIFE AFTER
  • 00:26:48.060 --> 00:26:49.270
  • DEATH," AND PEOPLE SAY,
  • 00:26:49.270 --> 00:26:50.220
  • "OH, WHAT'S THAT ABOUT?"
  • 00:26:50.220 --> 00:26:51.100
  • SO YOU SAY, "WELL, WHEN YOU DIE,
  • 00:26:51.100 --> 00:26:52.100
  • YOU GO INTO WHATEVER MODE THERE
  • 00:26:52.100 --> 00:26:53.250
  • IS, BUT THEN GOD WILL MAKE A NEW
  • 00:26:53.250 --> 00:26:56.020
  • WORLD WHICH IS STAGE TWO OF
  • 00:26:56.020 --> 00:26:58.030
  • "LIFE AFTER DEATH."
  • 00:26:58.030 --> 00:27:00.070
  • AND SO THAT GETS PEOPLE
  • 00:27:00.070 --> 00:27:01.150
  • THINKING, AND THEN
  • 00:27:01.150 --> 00:27:02.120
  • THEY'RE READY TO READ THE
  • 00:27:02.120 --> 00:27:03.210
  • NEW TESTAMENT AT LAST.
  • 00:27:03.210 --> 00:27:05.090
  • [LAUGHTER]
  • 00:27:05.090 --> 00:27:06.070
  • - ERIC: OKAY, SO, WELL, THERE'S
  • 00:27:06.070 --> 00:27:06.290
  • NO QUESTION THAT WE WILL HAVE
  • 00:27:06.290 --> 00:27:07.290
  • RESURRECTED BODIES AND THAT WE
  • 00:27:07.290 --> 00:27:09.200
  • WILL LIVE, IN SOME MEASURE, IN A
  • 00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:12.170
  • WORLD-- THANKS TO "THE GREAT
  • 00:27:12.170 --> 00:27:14.140
  • DIVORCE,"
  • 00:27:14.140 --> 00:27:17.060
  • I'M ABLE TO IMAGINE--
  • 00:27:17.060 --> 00:27:17.290
  • AS THICKER AND MORE REAL.
  • 00:27:17.290 --> 00:27:19.230
  • - N.T.: EXACTLY, AND WE WILL BE
  • 00:27:19.230 --> 00:27:20.200
  • THICKER AND MORE REAL AS WELL.
  • 00:27:20.200 --> 00:27:22.040
  • - ERIC: THAT IS A GREAT WAY OF
  • 00:27:22.040 --> 00:27:24.050
  • PUTTING IT, AND I
  • 00:27:24.050 --> 00:27:26.150
  • AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY.
  • 00:27:26.150 --> 00:27:28.090
  • WE HAVE TO END IT THERE.
  • 00:27:28.090 --> 00:27:29.100
  • N.T. WRIGHT, TOM,
  • 00:27:29.170 --> 00:27:32.170
  • THANK YOU SO MUCH.
  • 00:27:32.170 --> 00:27:33.140
  • - N.T.: ERIC, THANKS.
  • 00:27:33.140 --> 00:27:34.040
  • IT'S ALWAYS A PLEASURE.
  • 00:27:34.040 --> 00:27:35.260
  • [MUSIC]
  • 00:27:35.260 --> 00:27:37.260
  • CAN'T STOP, CAN'T STOP
  • 00:27:37.260 --> 00:27:38.180
  • CAN'T STOP,
  • 00:27:38.180 --> 00:27:39.050
  • CAN'T-- CAN'T STOP,
  • 00:27:39.050 --> 00:27:40.130
  • CAN'T STOP
  • 00:27:40.210 --> 00:27:43.210
  • - PHIL ROBERTSON: SURELY, ERIC,
  • 00:27:46.230 --> 00:27:47.210
  • HE DIDN'T PUT THIS HERE TO BE
  • 00:27:47.210 --> 00:27:48.220
  • SCRAPED OFF EVERY DAY.
  • 00:27:48.220 --> 00:27:50.250
  • - ERIC: OH-OH.
  • 00:27:50.250 --> 00:27:51.090
  • - PHIL: IT DOESN'T EVEN
  • 00:27:51.090 --> 00:27:51.270
  • MAKE SENSE.
  • 00:27:51.270 --> 00:27:52.280
  • WE NEVER THOUGHT THAT GOD WOULD
  • 00:27:52.280 --> 00:27:54.000
  • PUT A PLATFORM IN FRONT OF US
  • 00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:55.260
  • WHEREBY WE WOULD WIN TO JESUS
  • 00:27:56.040 --> 00:27:59.040
  • THOUSANDS, AND I LOOKED AT IT,
  • 00:27:59.040 --> 00:28:01.080
  • [MUSIC]
  • 00:28:04.050 --> 00:28:04.260
  • BOOM, BOOM
  • 00:28:04.260 --> 00:28:05.220
  • BOOM, BOOM
  • 00:28:05.220 --> 00:28:06.160
  • BOOM, BOOM
  • 00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:07.060
  • BOOM, BOOM
  • 00:28:07.060 --> 00:28:08.070
  • BOOM, BOOM
  • 00:28:08.070 --> 00:28:11.030